Why does everyone have to always house rule something that doesn't need it. The armor isn't OP its just fine the way it is. If you don't like it then don't give the players the options of getting it. Why bring this kind of garbage to the forums? Once your opinion has been set nothing here that will ever change your mind. No matter how much one person claims it "OP" and even if every other person gives a thousand reasons why its not or how to curb the issue with out making house rules for it you will still claim "OP" Its like people are grasping to find that one person to confirm their opinion so they can run to the group and tell their RPG group that the people on the FFG forums agree with me so I win!

People just except what is written in the books, be happy there is a Death Watch RPG, and be happy that we can play the most bad ass soldiers ever imagined.

HappyDaze said:

This is a very simple and excellent solution.

The other one of course being 'play it like the rules suggest, and make them roll'. It's not a fault in the rules for being imbalanced if you ignore the rules.

new armor?

where in rites of battle???

****, need the pdf version..........

but tell me about the new armors....i want an mk6 for my space wolf.......

Mk I-VIII are all represented in terms of armour value, skill/stat modifiers, fluff and other stuff. PC's armour is generated randomly via a d10 roll. Older armour is typically poorer in armour value, but has more rolls on the history tables and may offer other benefits.

Although Mk I through III armour are NOT normally available to characters, details are included so that the GM can theoretically use them in games.

Oh yeah: Three new armour history tables, too.

honKYkat73 said:

honKYkat73 said:

Its not China friend, we are allowed as many constructive criticism or pointless whining as much we want. Its Fan forum about DW not some prime minister praise competition, such criticism or advice can (or not) make next products better, and i buy it with my money so i want better product. And im happy that DW was made, still i would be overjoyed if it would be made better, without need of 100page errata for 400page book.

And u may be assured that 98% people on FFG forums are very happy about deathwatch release.

I read this part: "Often, it is worn by officers or squad leaders as a symbol of rank" as, can require an honor/distinction to obtain.

Seriously fellas, if this sort of thing bothers you as starting wargear, just put some sort of requirement on it for your game.

The mark 8 adds to command checks? Make the player run a successful mission as team lead first. Make him obtain an imperialis or something. Create your own honor like a sergeant's badge or something that they must obtain before being allowed the new suit.

Worried that the older marks will prove to be too big of a boost for a player? Make him earn the "honor your wargear" merit badge to prove he's trustworthy enough to be allowed an older mark of armor.

Want your players to have to pay something for their marks of armor? Allow them at char-gen, but require the signature wargear talent be taken for that suit.

There are ways to make obtaining that special armor mean something to your players and they'll appreciate the piece and its bonuses even more if they have to work for it. Plus, that's always more fun that just saying no. You can even make it into an adventure hook.

Work with the player before hand. He wants to run around in a suit of mark VI armor, with x and y history. Ok, so now you have a relic of the Deathwatch called the Armor of Martellus. Last worn by brother captain Martellus of the Fire hawks 500 years prior. Currently enshrouded on X Planet that has been plague by Orks for the last 2 centuries. The inquisition wants to virus bomb the planet, which won't hurt the factories, so the local populace has been mostly evacuated, and are in the last stages of removal from the planet. Your squad has been charged with recovering the remains of brother captain Martellus so what remains of his flesh isn't devoured by the virus, or bothered by the orks before the virus wipes them and all their nifty fungal spores off the face of the planet.

Should the marine accomplish the task, but not excel in the mission, the watch fortress has a new relic in the vaults that can be loaned out to brothers who distinguish themselves in future service. Should the marine prove vital to the success of the mission, fighting the rearguard action solo while his brothers safely stow the body and relics aboard their dropship, or being the first one into the shrine and slaying the warboss in single combat before he can lay his filthy green hands on the captains remains, then a grateful watch fortress could award the relic to the marine, to safeguard while he lives as his own armor, adding to the history and glory himself.

It's just all about how much work you want to put into it. I see the books as the building blocks, and the campaign as the cool block city you build from it. Of course, that would make the players into the rampant 5 year old that stomps through the city knocking it all down, but aren't they/we?

Don't have the books on me but I specifically remember reading in Rites of Battle that the MK6 helmet was incompatible with the MK8 chest. That at least means you lose the +5 PER. Also, if you swap out the chest and helmet from the MK6, then that is a very good portion of the armor, would the bonus Ag even apply anymore? It's not really a MK6 armor anymore, only the arms, shoulders, and legs pretty much.

boruta666 said:

Heck, I'd argue 99 percent of the fanbase is happy with the rules 'as is' without any need of errata or anything. Most gaming groups I've ever been in outright refuse to use errata because it's needlessly complicated and 'too much work to get' - this is true of anything from 40k to D&D stuff. The things in the books are what most gamers play with. They never bother using the internet to get the errata, I'd reckon most never even get the free PDF supplements or anything. So barring it appearing in a book the GM buys, the errata won't ever be used. Might not even be then because the GM won't like something about it. Like it or not, us fanboys who haunt messageboards are still probably a rather significantly small minority.

I think an easy solution to the Armor thing is to have a random armor failure.

A given set of armor can only tolerate so much damage and repair, after decades of damage and services to the DW armor set see the worst any armors could suffer.

When a player as spent more then ~30 to 50 FP or burned 4 to 7 FP (burn is counted as 5 to 10 uses) for is survivability, the armor set is destroyed 50%, rendered useless 50%. The battle brother must finish the mission with a random set of armor pieces or must discard the armor entirely ( and suffer no awarding of any XP pts until extraction and any honor/valor pts) and suffer the disgrace.

The destroyed armor must be taken through the rites of the Fallen Brother and the brother must sancitfy is soul again and meditate on the faith of the battle brothers before him who had the honor of dying in the destoryed or too badly damaged armor set.

Then after a while a new set of armor is given to the battle brother, since the battle bother must have survived daring odds to survive a power armor he is honored with an armor that should be "more" in tune with the battle brother ( give a choice of 2 or 3 armors rolled at random or give XP pts buy or honor, for 2 honor shift dice roll up pr down 2 steps etc.)

Suijin said:

IIRC from my drooling over the armor abilities tables, the chest piece doesn't limit the helmet but the gorget does (you can't use a beakie with the neck guard). the armor combo tables have two separate the torso into those pieces. so... you can have a full mk6 but with the totally upgraded 11 armor chest (but no neck protection). i personally would decrease the agility bonus by 5 with the addition of a clearly bulkier piece of armor, though.

crisaron said:

Why would a set of armour that's been in use for up to 10,000 years suddenly fall apart after 2 months of combat operations in the hands of a PC?

I assume you are joking crisaron...

There was once a showcase in a White Dwarf a few years back or maybe online, it showed how to make Space Marines with damaged armour. There was a sidenote attached to the article that clearly stated that while heavy damage can be inflicted to the armour (power unit failure, blown off shoulder pad etc.) the whole suit can only be destroyed by ripping the SM to pieces. So the idea of random armour destruction is not really feasible. And let's forget that some chapters use armour that was used during the Horus Heresy, like the Red Scorpions and their Mk IV armour.

Additionally your idea of punishing players for the use of FPs is just plain wrong (come on, destroyed suit of armour and disgrace? For what?). You don't punish someone for using the rules as they are written, unless you really want to turn people away from a game (which you probably don't intend to).

not punishing people at all. I just loath with my entire dark soul min and maxers, this was a way of giving history to your character and is armor.

--> Also I believe armor damage is somethign that should be in the game especially when the armor is a POWER ARMOR and a freaking SM, come on give the guys a challenge and the fact they are 7 to 10 foot tall towers iron towers on the battlefield should make them fire magnet! I could be even more realistic like other system and every time the armor pts overloaded (dmg of 13 on an arm), the total armor is lowered by 1 until 0 where the piece fails.

All armors are relic and to do extensive care on a power armor may take years depending on the age of the said armor and it's lineage, an armor machine spirit may need to be attuned much longer then others.

IMO a brother should not select is power armor.

Yes Power Armors survive thousands or years yet on many occasions (read them black library), brothers are awarded new armors because the old one just took too much and needs to be broken apart a (Panosius or something as greaves from a terminator armor), Uriel himself had to take a new set of armor after is enemy ripped it of him piece by piece or fell apart through the ordeal he faced in the warp..

PEOPLE THIS IS DW. Marines will face the most dangerous and daring treats, surly your Xenos use a panoply of very corrosive materials? Your corrupted mechanicus will stop at nothing to score a set of MK6, and all renegade would sell the little pieces of souls they have left for a MK8...

Use every bit of the fluff to create the RP side of it, have them love their armors because anything less is not a SM but a CSM!

Arag said:

Oh did dyou miss the after 30 to 50 FP usage? I mean come on! I may happen once per campaign or two if you push it as a DM but it gives some RP scenario, Vault may open for a set, the player may have to face a given creature without armor because there is a sacred Chaplain armor that opened up protected in the Vault...

RP I LOVE RP!

No, we didn't miss it. Players spend 3FP per session. So 50 of them is less than half-a-dozen missions, I suspect. Armour did not survive the Heresy only to be junked within weeks of being handed to players. It makes little sense. It's not like the prior owners haven't also been killing xenos on a daily basis, too.

It's going to be hard for them to love their armour (armour amour?) if the GM keeps taking it off them and breaking it...

crisaron said:

i wouldn't tie it to fate point usage. my group is going to complete their 3rd mission this week and they have always used their entire allotment of fate points (10-14 depending on the player in question by the end of friday's game). i'd hate to tell them that somehow their armor is now 1/2-1/3 "used up" simply because they're using their abilities. i could see the loss of armor being used as a plot point for a marine if they did something remarkable or simply unique, like surviving a titan weapon blast by permanently blowing a fate point. if anything, if you insist on tying it to a FP metric, use some number of PERMANENTLY burned fate point as those typically mean the character has survived damage that should have killed him but didn't (and possibly should have trashed the armor at the same time).

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH you guys missed :

When a player as spent more then ~30 to 50 FP or burned 4 to 7 FP (burn is counted as 5 to 10 uses) for is survivability, the armor set is destroyed 50%, rendered useless 50%.

You know when your players says well I eater take a FP or die or cower in that coner cause I only 1 life pts left...

That is the only time I would ask th player to add a pts to is damage tally and besides players could always try to fix this after every mission they coudl insure their armor is always in the hand of the best techmarine... again RP event. etc.

The armor should not take dmg for a reroll or something like that, that would be just silly!

Edit: I may make melta weapon give bonus armor dmg to make hem useful (at least for vilains! gigle)

crisaron said:

I don't think we missed anything. You said 'spent 30-50FP or burned 4 to 7'. we are focusing on the first part of that statement.

Siranui said:

!!!!!!

Okay different tactics and groups I guess... 30 to 50 burn for me is a lot anywho, I was trying to find a way for me and mates to use them books without making new chars and giving this some RP and also giving them a few of those SUPER items in a controlled and awarding fashion not the simple yeah yeah by all you can be by min maxing.

I undestand also the min maxers BTW, some of my players like to play with the performance in mind and their overall killiness but I the end their as to be a middle point where we meet.

Cheers!

I'm personally in favour of letting everyone who already had a character ROLL on the new tables as per normal to generate a random new suit, and then have the choice between that and their original one. As long as you don't let players choose what they are getting, there's no major balance issue.

If your players aren't spending all of their Fate each play session (3-5 points), then they should start doing so. Even if it's just to buy up Cohesion or Wounds right before the end of a session. Not using them is really wasteful.

Siranui said:

Some not all, especially not just for survivability, I like to work on climax and spending tons of FP during middle missions to me is a bit anti-climax...but that is just play stile.

Siranui said:

lol, agreed. we didn't miss anything but just think its a horrible idea. i've had players use fate points in the PRE-MISSION phase when setting up the mission... like a player trying to inspire guardsmen meatsh - i mean valued allies prior to a suicide mission in order to make sure they don't die or fall back before accomplishing their objective. i always encourage them not to spend them too early and leave one for the climax of the mission but ultimately its their choice.

K you missed a point, so what if he spend FP before mission that should not go on the armor tally. I would only use this rule if the FP is used to keep the SM alive nothing else.

Anywho each their own!

Gotta admit, the Mk6 armor is pretty slick vicious, possibly the best armor, though my players would heftily argue that that lower AP is worth the +10 agility (as +5 more autosenses is nice, but negligable for bargain shopper marines who snag an auspex and/or preysense site of some type). Alittle more than half the time, my poor pc's get nickle & dimed throughout long fights with inferior enemies, and the 1pt extra of damage can add up, and +10 agility does no good for you against hordes (aside from letting you run away or towards them). The extra armor rolls are nice, but honestly, aside from the original table, the other tables are about 50% dangerous/more detrimental than beneficial (chance to lower your armor value, chance to give you a short trip to corrupt npc-dom, chance to end up totally insane very quickly, etc).

Rolled up a new marine yesterday (using a home-brew chapter created from the chapter creation tables) and for his armor I used the rites of battles tables to see what he's strutting around in.

What I ended up with was a suit of mark V armor ( 7/9AP with a fellowship bonus to other marines) and the history was that it has mk VI parts, with which I rolled up leg. So I'm getting a 5 point agility bump and an 8 armor on a leg in a suit of armor that was around during the heresy. Sweet. Gonna hafta make a studded shoulder pad for my mini.

I don't think that's overpowered. It could have been worse, or it could have been better. Heck, I could have rolled the history that allows the WS/BS bump but gives you insanity. I think they all add good flavor if not utility without imbalancing anything.

The one comment I seem to see repeated is how out of control an assault marine with +10 agility (from the mark VI armor) or even, emperor forbid, +15 (mark VI with a fury like lightning history, holy crap) would be. Now maybe I missed something, but honestly, how bad would that be?

His pilot(personal) rolls will be better. Ok, so he can use the jump pack they trained him to use.

He's faster. His Initiative gets 1 more point. Doesn't mean he can't roll a 1 like anyone else.

He's more Acrobatic. He should be, he entered the assault marine specialty.

He moves farther. He's going to move farther anyway, he has a rocket strapped to his back.

He'll dodge everything. Why should he dodge? With wall of steel and counter attack, not to mention that his WS should be high, he should parry instead.

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't seem too overpowered.