Siranui said:

That is the point. In fact I have been distributing the list picks over ranks and added a bit cc stuff. Let me remind you that all of this was off-the-cuff.

The point to it is this: the PC cannot pick from his old specialty advancement chart anymore. Nor can he pick from the old characteristic advances (he must pick from chaplain advances).

2 goals to what I have been suggesting:
1. Make the chaplain be an exclusive full-time job.
2. Make him become good in melee and more importantly boost the cc capabilities of the team significantly.

One would have to develop the idea fully of course but it was only to show an alternative to the choice FFG has made. Alas, I'm going to play with the Chaplain as provided. Like I said, I'm not a Chaplain fanboy.

Btw, if a Dev becomes a Chaplain he keeps his heavy bolter? Is that true? o_O

Alex

ak-73 said:

In the DW why not?

The character prefers to fight as a Dev but has shown the proper zeal, hatred and even temperament towards other chapters to draw the eyes of the DW Chaplains. They recruit him, train him, raise him. He is now a Chaplain, that won't stop his preference and skill set to fight as a Dev. He carries his Crozius in place of a CCW and spews hateful words and death from his heavy bolter. When the time comes he drops the heavy bolter, pulls out the Crozius and starts bashing skulls. I don't see a problem with that.

Nor I. It's adding options, instead of placing restrictions.

An assault-marine-based Chaplain is pretty much exactly what most people think of when they think 'Chaplain', and if you want to use that as a 'base' template then that will create a very typical Chaplain, and render the creation of a whole new class progression to be moot and pretty much a waste of time. But if you fancy playing 'Shooty the Chaplain' then the option is there for those who want it. Granted: It might not be the most optimal option, but it's still there.

The whole thing of changing costs of stat-advancement when stepping into a Chaplain career would be just RIPE for abuse and min-maxxing, IMO. I don't really see what having a Chaplain as a separate career adds to the game, unless a player wants to start as a Chaplain. In which case -as I sad before- start as a BT assault, and just make a few changes. Obviously players wouldn't then start with a Crosius, but so what? Heck: I'd like to start as a first company veteran with terminator armour, but that doesn't mean that I should be allowed to do so from start-up!

Siranui said:

No, that misses the point. A shooty Chaplain can also be built with the approach I have suggested. But some people expect from a Chaplain that he leaves his old specialty behind. The problem isn't in what is possible but in what the mechanics convey.

But we don't have to argue this to death: the point is that some people have a problem with the DW Chaplain not being what they hoped or expected him to be (and chaplains have fans). They expected him to be more like a home chapter chaplain; not exactly like a home chapter chaplain but more than he is. And that has to do with the points I mentioned:

1 The DW Chaplain is not an exclusive career choice. In fact it is not even the primary focus mechanically given that the characteristics are still dependent on the base specialty.

2. He's probably not as bad-a** in cc as epxected. This isn't a thing of going from über to super-über. The chaplain does not get a second melee attack though and he doesn't really boost the KT's cc abilities significantly.

Alex

PS Not to mention that the path I suggested wrt chaplain would have sharpened the specialty focus: you lose further upgrades in your old specialty but gain spritual leadership and cc buffing abilties. You have less choices with my ranked, exclusive chaplain than with the official one but that chaplain gets very effective in his niche.

I REALLY disagree that the role should also make the character any more 'killy' in CC (aside from directly chaplain-related bonuses). If you want killy in CC, be an assault marine. Or an assault marine who steps into Champion. It's not the role of advanced specialities to simply be a no-brainer 'better choice' than classes that are already designed to excel in that role. That route leads to 3.5 PrC madness.

Pretty much everything a player would want to make a Chaplain -bar combat skills- is already in the package. If a player wants cc skills as well and isn't an AM, then point them at the Champion. Including a whole bunch of CC-related stuff in Chaplain would have trodden on the toes of the Champion and made that package moot.

I guess some people would complain either way, but I think that the published solution is the better of the two to my mind, and has probably resulted in less complaints than doing things the other way around. Though I'm a little surprised that there were no more bases classes in RoB (I expected one).

Siranui said:

Please explain how the below would have made the chaplain a no-brainer choice, as opposed to a focussed specialty that is very effective at what it's about.

Special ability: Liturgies of Battle (gives something like an additional attack during a charge for every KT member in range)

Rank 4:
Intimidate+10
Interrogation
CL(Eccles.)
FL(Primarchs)
SL(Imp Creed)
SL(Legends)
Peer(Astartes)
Hatred (any one)
Swift Attack

Rank 5:
Command
Deceive
Intimidate+20
Interrogation+10
FL(Traitor)
FL(Primarchs)+10
SL(Legends)+10
Hatred (any)
Call to Vengeance

Rank 6:
Command+10
Interrogation+20
FL(Primarchs)+20
Scourge of Heretics
Icon of Duty

Rank 7:
FL(Traitor)+10
Air of Authority
Good Reputation(Astartes)

Rank 8:
FL(Traitor)+20
Lightning Attack

Siranui said:

Why would I point someone who expected a chaplain who is more like the chaplain gamers have known for years to the DW Champion? These people don't want to play a DW Champion.

Siranui said:

That is all speculation. It may be true, it may be utterly false.

Alex

ak-73 said:

You're doing a sterling job of putting words into my mouth, there. I never said your suggestion was a no-brainer, nor more killy. I also was quite clear that my comment was speculation with the caveat 'to my mind'.

If people expect Chaplains to be like traditional Chaplains then -again- The AM/tac is the obvious template, and obvious way to make it work. If people want a more 'killy' version, then pointing them at the Champion AS WELL AS the Chaplain is a good idea, as it further focuses the role to melee. Granted, you'd need to both allow the player two specialities and to slightly re-fluff, but that's not really a problem.

In many ways, I'm still not sure why a player who wanted to play a 'traditional' Chaplain right from the start would not be satisfied with a re-fluffed BT AM who then steps into the DW Chaplain role when it becomes available. Surely that ticks every box?

Siranui said:

As a direct response to a post of mine:
"I REALLY disagree that the role should also make the character any more 'killy' in CC (aside from directly chaplain-related bonuses). If you want killy in CC, be an assault marine. Or an assault marine who steps into Champion. It's not the role of advanced specialities to simply be a no-brainer 'better choice' than classes that are already designed to excel in that role. That route leads to 3.5 PrC madness."

Siranui said:

I addressed this before, I believe: the controversy is not about whether a Chaplain that is adept at close combat can be made out of this mechanic. It can. But the mechanic is less focussed; it makes Chaplains more diffuse than they have been in the TT.

In 40K all chaplains are exceptional cc fighters. And in 40K chaplains are chaplains only and nothing else.

Now you and anybody can say: 'I don't mind, I like the new role of the DW Chaplains who are only spiritual leaders without the cc focus.' Fair enough. But there will probably people who would have rather seen a full-fledged (exclusive) chaplain career, probably with a strong close combat focus. That's what they have been familiar with. This new DW Chaplain is more unfamiliar and not what some may have expected.

But then again there's no accounting for taste after all.

Alex

I have an easy solution for my home game: Combine Assault Marine with Chaplain. Replace the Assault Marine starting gear with Chaplain gear. Add the chaplain advances to the Assault Marine advances. Presto, instant Chaplain career.

I'm fairly certain it will still be less powerful than a devestator with a heavy bolter.

1st and fore most there is NO CAREER for a space marine in TT or the rest of the 40k Flufff!

All marines go through :

- Scout

- Dev

- Assault

- Tactical

- THEN > Veteran / Command , 1st Company , Chaplain, honor guards etc.

Except : Psykers who are usually Scout then librarian.

A chaplain cannot be a career choice, they are not priest from childhood they are preacher of battle learned through the fire and hell of war through countless battle with their battle brothers.

The TRUE power of a chaplain is to allow the entire battle line to stand and fight as one against any type of moral threat, they are described as very experience battle brothers but are not the best CC except for the fact that they are veteran SM.

As the tides chaos ripped apart reality, the group shuddered, the spawn of Slaneshee screamed in fervor and began trashing all over the place. Quickly warp rift appeared from them came out beauties so untold the heart of each man stopped as they walked the battle fields, killing with lust and beaty man would throw themself at the deamons, soem even started turning their own weapons on the few Space Marines helping defend the battle line.

As one battle brother fell to a band of crazed guardsmen filled with lust and terror a booming voice, full of strength and and resolution swept the field like a great gale:" - FOR HE IS THE LIGHT THAT HOLDS US! FOR HE IS THE ONE THAT SAVED US! I SHALL SEE NO EVEIL! I SHALL TOLERATE NO HERESY! FEAR IS MY TOOL! I AM THE FIST OF THE EMPEROR, IS SWORD..."

The impressive black figure stalked the line heading for the greater deamon, he resolved pace like a drum roll. All around him guardsmen took a stand, their voiced raised as one following the old liturgy of war. As one the Space marine overcame their respective foe, the voice of the black figure giving resolve to every blow, where the fight had been to simply give a last fight at all cost, it was overtaken by a feel of certainty.

"FOR WE SHALL NOT FAIL, WE ARE IS VOICE, WE ARE IS EYES, WE ARE IS FISTS..."

As the black figure very close to the deamon line, the advance of the deamons faltered, so much faith was akin to promeathum fire released in their ranks. Yet, the black figure did not falter, it came within meters of the greater deamon, around the battle field all of them add only eyes for him, is faith a bright beacon of hope and strength. How they feared him, hated him, wanted to destroy him.

"DAEMON THIS IS A WORLD OF THE EMPEROR, A WORLD OF MANKIND OUR FAITH IS OUR WEAPON, THIS WORLD IS OURS!"

As the last word came out, the daemon understood that they where emplified, but it had been enough. All over the battlefield, the human where rallying and fighting harder, theri fatih where pushing back the unstable warp. The black figure jumped high, is crozium ready to strike, the daemon did not fear such thing overtly, a lonely figure...

Out of the sky, a bright yellow figure came crashing down on the deamon "FOR DORN!" chainsword blazing, the heavy fire of a heavy bolter from where devastetor brother had retreated, also came the steady bark of the standard boltguns as 3 battle brothers advanced in the steady rithm of a practiced tacticaL squad.

The words of the Chaplain had reinvigorated the guardsmen as well as the spirit of the space marines themself, for the word of Slaneshee is clostly on the soul but the soul is know by the Chaplain, the rites of battle and liturgy of faith is weapons is flock the soul of the warriors of the emperor.

My version of Deathwatch Chaplain as a base Specialty will arrive tomorrow, all is done, i am just pondering over skill and talent costs.

Went faster than i thought, enjoy: home.arcor.de/tkis21/Download/Deathwatch%20Chaplain%20v0.3.pdf

Looks fairly solid at first glance. My additional thoughts:

-Personally I think he's getting a lot of advances per rank compared to almost all the basic specialties. Perhaps cut out Charm among others?
-Plus 4 cheap characteristics? Maybe he's a bit too good in overall comparison. As for my personal taste I would have made WS and WP cheap and as third either Fel or S or T.

Alex

Explanations as to why things are as they are:

Chaplain Stat advancement table and his Ranks are based on the Librarian table, who also has a lot of Lore skills in his Rank advancements, hence the cheap Intelligence.

I follow the Skill necessary for a Talent before the actual Talent Route, that means that a skill like Charm which is necessary for a Talent like Litany of Hate is available 1 or 2 ranks before it on the progression scale.

Number of Lore and Skill Advancements is comparable to a Librarian, what can be cut out though are various melee talents, should the table be really too saturated with talents. In total the oversaturation with talents and skills is not worse than that of a Librarian, and there were no forumwide complaints until now about those.

The choice of advancements was rather obvious with WP, Fel and WS being the most used stats, Int made the cut to keep on par with other Lore heavy Specialties like Apothecaries and Librarians. Main reasoning for that was the heavy Lore dependancy implied by FFG in their version, going up to 500 progression for INT would hamper the Specialty in its Lore Skills Progress.

I personally like the way FFG represented the Chaplains. Firstly by their non-chapter-based approach... there may be novels (well... one of them - C.S. Goto really doesn't count) that have chaplains in the Deatwatch, but seriously? The guy whose closedmindedness would make a klansman green with envy? He's supposed to be able to fulfill the spiritual needs of possibly even rival chapters? No, the Deathwatch needs a far more ecumenical approach than the usual chapter hate-mongers are able to provide.

As for the "part time" argument... are your players playing part time Ultramarines? It's just one chart, after all, not a full rank advancement. Still, I'd consider my character's chapter about as important for his personality as his specialization.

Reposted my version in House rules section, this thread is too cluttered for an additional discussion of it

What the hell, I can not get the quote tags to work on this forum. Am I doing something wrong? Can someone please PM me over this?

1st and fore most there is NO CAREER for a space marine in TT or the rest of the 40k Flufff!

@Dabat

What the hell, I can not get the quote tags to work on this forum. Am I doing something wrong? Can someone please PM me over this?

The forum developers belong executed for heresy against the Omnisiah's principles of proper user interfaces. I've found manually copying and pasting quotes and italicizing them the best (as in "least bad") way.

Would you mind restating your post? I couldn't really see what was your argument and what was the quote.

I'm bummed that Space wolves can't be chaplains. WTH is a wolf Priest, but an apothecary turned chaplain?

Fenrisnorth said:

He's not an Apothecary - he uses all sorts of 'primitive' techniques and medicines that many other Chapters would object to having performed on their Battle-Brothers. He's also not a Chaplain - his teachings are heavily modified by the culture of Fenris. Simply put, Wolf Priests are too 'weird' to play well with others and just because they are represented with near-identical abilities in the minis game doesn't mean that they necessarily would be in the RPG.

I doubt they are truly primative, I assume you are referring to the runic potion for the 3rd ed codex? They perform the surgeries to implant the organs. and why is a Space Wolf's inspirational techniques too different to use when those Dark Angel pricks won't even tell you why you're fighting to inspire you?

I think they just said, "Oh don't give Space wolves Apothecaries, they use Iron priests instead,which are a combo with Chaplains and those aren't in the game." then "Don't give Space wolves Chaplains, they use Iron Priests, which are part Apothecary, and Space wolves can't be those."

I think you mean Wolf Priest, but I understand your frustration especially as any Deathwatch Apothecary can become a Deathwatch Chaplain. The Space Wolves just have to be different and, in this case, it bites their players in the ass.

Iron Priests = Techmarines

The wolf priests are more alchemist/witch doctor than medical doctor. That said, they do have high tech medical capabilities, they just prefer the "natural" approach.

And when the Wolf Priests start jabbering on about spirits in the air and the land all the other chapters would roll their eyes and start complainnig that only machines have spirits.