Sorry: Poor communication there: I meant that the idea of Chapter Chaplains in DW just doesn't work. I think the DW Chaplain works fine with the fluff that's presented for it and is pretty good.

ak-73 said:

It is, and that's the point.

The Deathwatch does not typically take Chaplains to serve amongst them - the necessary zeal and endless fury most Chaplains embody makes it difficult for them to work in the manner the Deathwatch requires. Rites of Battle specifically says this. However, Deathwatch Marines may still require the spiritual and moral counsel that a Chaplain provides, necessitating that they have somebody who can fill the role of a Chaplain within the Deathwatch. Thus Deathwatch Chaplains exist, chosen from amongst the ranks of the Deathwatch to serve as spiritual and moral guides for their Brothers.

The Deathwatch Chaplain advance is exactly what the background claims it to be - an experienced Marine chosen by the Deathwatch to serve as a Chaplain for Marines of the Deathwatch. It doesn't make him a Chaplain of his home Chapter, and the choice means that the Deathwatch Chaplain can never return to his home Chapter (how's that for dedication?). In-character exertions needed to obtain a particular advance are a GM's responsibility to enforce, but they're described in the background text for the DW Chaplain that everyone complaining about them seems to have consciously ignored (apprenticeship under an existing DW Chaplain, for starters).

The notion of the Deathwatch not employing pre-existing Chaplains precludes there being a full Chaplain speciality - a Rank 1/Starting Character Chaplain would have no place in a Kill-Team, because there's no allowances for what he was before. Which means that you have to start putting in rules for changing between Specialities (open season for power gamers everywhere)... And, quite frankly, what would a Chaplain Speciality offer in mechanical terms that Assault Marine + Chaplain Advanced Speciality doesn't?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I got that. But you've been missing the point here: the least we would assume for a DW Chaplain was that he would leave his old role as DW Assault or DW Devastator or DW Apothecary and become a full-time DW Chaplain here.

Perhaps I haven't been explicit enough: it's not about being a home chapter chaplain. It's about being asked to become a DW chaplain at some point in your DW career. And then committing yourself to this specialty full-time.

And another thing: if being a home chapter chaplain is a full-time job, being the spiritual guide of a so diverse lot is much more of a full-time job.

It is only about the problem that advanced specialties are not more than part-time jobs or extended hobbies. Some people here seem to think that certain specialties justify a full-blown change of specialties. I can see why they would.

Alex

Post deleted due to formatting error; reposted below

ak-73 said:

No, that's an issue of perception; absolutely none of the advanced specialities represent things that are temporary or incidental as far as I can tell. Or are you suggesting that becoming a First Company Veteran, Deathwatch Captain, Deathwatch Keeper, Kill-Marine or Dreadnought is in some way an "extended hobby".

They add to the character's range of potential capabilities, an additional layer of definition... just because some people don't like that particular presentation doesn't make it incorrect.

Argh! What have you done?! Deleted too, see next post.

Alex

N0-1_H3r3 said:

(Lol, too late for me. Trying again here.)

But fluff correctness isn't the issue since FFG is entering unchartered territory here. The issue is the gap between the expectations of some of the dedicated Chaplain fans and the DW Chaplain as-is. That there have been a number of posters who were underwhelmed we can take as a fact. And just as with the Space Wolves it should make FFG wonder whether they have struck the right note. If I was the author of the DW Chaplain, I know it would make me wonder.As for the extended hobby bit that was of course hyperbole to drive my point home. DW Chaplain as of RoB is a part-time occupation while the regular day-to-day job is Assault or Tactical or Devastator or Apothecary.

So given that Chaplain is a full-time job in the home chapter (get drafted from your former squad and transferred to chapter HQ) why did FFG choose to make the DW Chaplain the way it is? You pay once the XP, become chaplain but remain in your old role too. The alternative would have been to say: when you reach rank 4 every Space Marine has the opportunity to become a DW chaplain if they meet the other requirement. If they choose to become a DW chaplain, from that point on he can use this advancement chart right here for spending xp instead his old one; he retains all skills, talents and special abilities but cannot spend further xp on his old specialty advancement chart. And because they didn't choose to run it this way but the way they did, it's not just a matter of perception. The full-time role remains the basic specialty; the advanced specialty gets "merely" tacked on to it instead of becoming a substitute (which would have meant: a full-time job).

Let me stress again: I have never been a huge fan of chaplains myself (although I liked Karnak a lot) but I think that is where some people are coming from (and frankly if so it makes sense to me). And it's perfectly legitimate to voice such feedback here. A number of people would have rather seen a full-fledged specialty with its own advancement chart, that's what I gather.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Is Deathwatch Captain also a "part-time job". What about First Company Veteran? What about the Deathwatch's Keepers or Kill-Marines?

In such cases, you either are one or you aren't - your original speciality determines the broad focus of your existing skills and future training (retaining ability to take from that speciality's advance scheme; you develop what you're good at), while the new advance table gives options appropriate for the way they are now defined.

Yet is is Chaplain that receives the brunt of the criticism. Nobody has complained of "part-time Captains" or "dilettante Veterans". The situations are no different, yet only one speciality is picked out for these complaints. This is what I mean of it being a matter of perception - when several situations alike are regarded so differently, that is a difference of perception.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

This.

Making it a separate advance scheme would have been a new mechanic, compared to the way that every other speciality is handled.

And this way you can play a melee chaplain, or a leader-chaplain or even a shooty chaplain.

The way to easily rectify the problem with complains that it means Chaplains can come from 'odd' backgrounds (such as Dev), is simply to add another entry requirement (ie tac and assault only). But this smacks of needlessly cutting down player options. But I guess if you want to be 'true' to setting, then you can simply do that.

I think that the major reason for disappointment/confusion in Chaplain fans is that the DW Chaplain is NOT a 'normal' Chaplain, because 'normal' Chaplains blatantly have no place in the DW. The DW Chaplain instead makes perfect sense as a member of Deathwatch, but seems odd to those expecting something else.

Not sure how cannon these books are but....

Have any of you read Warrior Brood by CS Goto? When they went back to the planet Herodian IV, they had with them a Chaplain. Chaplain Broec of the Black Templars (Deceased, killed by Tyranid Hive Tyrant) who worked alongside a Mantis Warrior Librarian to defeat said Hive Tyrant. From what I remember from reading the book (and it been a few years) while Broec did not care for the Mantis Warriors with them, nor a couple others on the team, he swallowed his pride and did his duty to the Emperor and the DeathWatch and died alongside the Mantis Warrior he did not trust at first, even giving him a nod of acknowledgement and respect in the final moments. The second reference I find of a chapter chaplain being on Death Watch is Chaplain Luthar of the Revilers in the Warrior Coven novel. And then, even when they were working with Eldar, he voiced his opinion but did not disrupt the mission. (Again, it been a while since I read the novels)

Now for me, I take a lot of what I know of the Death Watch not just from the Fluff and mechanics of the TT, but from the novels Warriorr Brood and Warrior Coven as well. DW does take in seconded Chaplains from various chapters, just not as often as Apothocaries, Librarians and TechMarines.

Now while I was disappointed in the fact that the Chaplain in RoB is just a Advance Speciality, I can somewhat understand and accept it. FFG has their reasons, maybe they just wanted to make it simple and not have the GM worry about the possible disruptions caused by a full fledged chapter chaplain. Who knows.

Thing is, why complain about it.. the book is done, it is printed and it is in our grubby hands to do what we want. If you don't like what FFG did, then don't use it... create your own Chaplain speciality, modify it. It isn't like FFG is going to see this thread and go "Hey, we made a mistake, lets redo the entire book."

I rather see a thread where people discuss and show what they have done to improve the Chaplain, make it into a Rank 1 speciality, how to fit it from each chapter and so forth and so on.

And thus I have added my own 2 cents.

Arkidda said:

I haven't; I wouldn't touch any of CS Goto's books with a ten foot pole, personally....

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I would think that the Black Shield option would allow a 'former' Chapter Chaplain to come over to the dark side of the Deathwatch. What Specialty should he take to start?

Deathwatch Chaplains make a lot of military sense. When small elite units realize they are missing a piece of the puzzle, they go out and get it. Usually on a loan from another unit until they can get their own organic guys. SF battalions were woefully short on humint assets at the the start of the war, they borrowed a bunch of humint guys for deployments until they could get a bunch of their own humint guy slots and humint cross training.

The Deathwatch probably recognized this spirtual need for their organization and made it happen.

HappyDaze said:

Whichever one he wants; the skills and talents (in game terms) typical to a Chaplain aren't exactly difficult to obtain through other means. The rest is roleplaying, with a side-order of elite advances to cover any short-fall.

Did I ever claim that the current rules could cover every eventuality, every corner case and exceptional situation? No, I didn't.

Should the rules cover one-in-a-million character archetypes, or should it cover the ones that are likely to occur in preference?

This is a huge issue with internet discussions - people so frequently bring out corner case examples to prove their point, without considering how unlikely those examples actually are.

All that aside, if that situation were to ever come up in my game, I'd write something to account for it myself. Because, frankly, that's the way I do things. Of course, I may not be typical in this regard, but I frankly believe that the difference between GM and games designer is that the latter gets paid for it.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

If they work like the Deathwatch Chaplain? Yes, they are. Get this: fluff-wise they may not be but mechanically they are. Chaplain or Captain will be their "secondary MOS" (for all those Recon RPG heads out there).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yeah that's right. A Devastator Chaplain will continue to train as an Devastator and that's where a lot of his XP will probably flow into. He does not leave his old specialty behind. That's the point. He even advances characteristics based on his old specialty. The advanced specialty is exactly what I have said it is: something tacked on to the actual role of the PC - his basic specialty.

Fluff-wise Chaplain or Captain are full-time jobs (Veteran is more a state of experience, btw). Chaplain mechanics do not model fluff. And of course chaplain draws the main criticism: it has been pre-released and it is a specialty that has quite some passionate fans. That is not surprising.

Alex

.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Oh, there is plenty more in ROB that is broken then the Chaplains, but that would be for another thread. The main differance between The proposed Chaplain to the others is that they are a more natural progression, Techmarine-ForgeMaster, Librarian-Epistolary, and the others are not nearly as unique in their abilites as a Chaplain. There is no basis in the other specialties for a Warrior/Scholar/Priest(closest thing would be the librarian that is excluded.) I think this argument has gone on enough though and we are all starting to loose our heads about it, I have a tendancy to be passionate about these subjects, as I am sure you all are. It just seemed a really half-attempt compaired to the work done in the core book.

Nimon said:

The core source of the problem is that the designers had settled for a specific format and they squeezed Chaplain, Captain, Veteran, Episolary (can you get Codicier btw?) into the same format of advanced specialties. I take it that this was part of the company of keeping it simple, nothing wrong with that. Otoh, two different formats would have been better - advanced specialties and full-fledged careers perhaps?

Alex

Yes I would agree to that, it was mentioned earlier that perhaps Watch Captain, Chaplain, and anything else considered a HQ unit should be more of an Ascended Career simular to DH. I like that Idea.

Nimon said:

I take it that there are no rules for progression over Codicier to Epistolary either? It would be a **** pity.

Alex

No, all the specialities are elite advance packages. I think it works, and I think it's really nice.

I don't think there's enough there to make a separate advance scheme worthwhile, if you couple with Assault Marine. Making it a standard package means a simple and an across-the-board mechanic that also allows players the flexibility to say 'I want to play a shooty chaplain'. It's about flexibility and simplicity.

Siranui said:

Nah, I still think it's all about squeezing it all into the same template of advanced specialty mechanics. Also if you start out as a Dev and get up 3 or 4 Ranks as Dev and then turn Chaplain, you can get a very shooty Chaplain if anyone is thus inclined.

The matter of fact is that as it is now it is a part-time job mechanics-wise.

And take a look at the specialty advance schemes - they get about 4 items per rank. I can do that for you.

Special ability: Liturgies of Battle (gives something like an additional attack in cc for every KT member in range)

Rank 4:
Intimidate+10
Interrogation
CL(Eccles.)
FL(Primarchs)
SL(Imp Creed)
SL(Legends)
Peer(Astartes)
Hatred (any one)
Swift Attack

Rank 5:
Command
Deceive
Intimidate+20
Interrogation+10
FL(Traitor)
FL(Primarchs)+10
SL(Legends)+10
Hatred (any)
Call to Vengeance

Rank 6:
Command+10
Interrogation+20
FL(Primarchs)+20
Scourge of Heretics
Icon of Duty

Rank 7:
FL(Traitor)+10
Air of Authority
Good Reputation(Astartes)

Rank 8:
FL(Traitor)+20
Lightning Attack

Higher ranks would need another item or two but I don't want to go over the talent list right now.

Note: all off-the-cuff, not fully thought through, no xp cost assigned, no characteristic advance chart either.
Just to prove that there would be enough meat to make a new specialty. Going through the ranks you can see how the Chaplain grows both as a leader and fighter. Much more fun than the advanced specialty mechanics.

Alex

we have done very similar thing with chaplin even before RoB chaplin except went online. Few differences, since in our games we use Veteran as base speciality, speciality change start at 5th rank, at ranks 5-8 u gain mostly leadership/hatred/zeal/killing talents and different lores. (Veteran is mix of Assault/tactical/devastator without leadership talents. Leadership advances went to sergeant/leader, something similar to RoB speciality)

works very well.

in my 2nd playing group i actually soon will have dedicated full time IF chaplain (start game at rank 6), and RoB part-time BT Deathwatch Chaplain (fresh after reclusiam joining rites, rank4+) . (ye i know 2 rogal dorn descendants chaplains in one team, chance one to million)

boruta666 said:

Prepare for Codex wars.

Alex

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Just because DeathWatch does not typically take a chaplain does not mean they will not accept one. There is not a lot of fluff about the DeathWatch up until this point, but prior to the RPG coming out on at least two different occasions they had a chaplain from another chapter in their kill team (the C.S. Goto book, and another I am struggling to recall). Which made them fluff wise nearly as common in the DeathWatch as librarians and techmarines.

I am totally ok with the DeathWatch Chaplain being what it is, a brother for when there is no other chaplain available. But that does not preclude starting and/or inexperanced chaplains from joining a killteam.

I would really like to know where you are getting your information for your last paragraph, because in fluff chaplains from other chapters deffinately ARE in DeathWatch. The fluff for the DeathWatch Chaplain even states this. And his place on the kill team is simple, the same as it is with his chapter, ie; spiritual counseling and social/knowledge skills with combat as a secondary (as much as combat ever is secondary with a space marine). You need no rules for switching between careers if you simply have a specialty for chaplains to start with... And, quite frankly, easy access to willpower and fellowship advances, lore and/or social skills to start with, and, most importantly, the ability to be a chaplain without first spending 12,000 XP in game.

Dabat said:

Play a Black Templar tactical or assault marine (as preferred) and file off the serial numbers? Remember that the character class selected represents what role that the character is supposed to be filling now that he is in Deathwatch. A Chapter Chaplain will not be acting as a Chapter Chaplain in DW: He will be filling some other role; most likely an AM or leader. If he wants to become a Chaplain within DW itself, I don't think it's unfair for him to wait until rank 4 to do so.

Just because Chaplain is 'part time' role mechanically, it does not mean that it is in the roleplay and characterisation sense.

Alex; pretty much that entire list is already on the Chaplain advance. You're spreading out over 4 ranks what essentially already exists as one rnak.