Am I? I know I am not on the forums much, I am pretty busy IRL and am not playing any of the DH/RT/DW trifecta right now (sadly). So if this had already been announced I didn't know about it. I really had been hoping that the Chaplain would be a full specialty all it's own, rather than a simple offshoot. As it is in the book the Chaplain simply seems... Underwhelming. That is my only real issue with the book, for most of it I just read and go 'mwahahahahahahaha!' at a volume normally reserved for cheering on a sports team.

Look closer at Rites of Battle and your disappointment will likely grow. It's game mechanics are very rough around the edges. Some of these are really obvious, others are only slowly becoming apparent.

I honestly don't think you could do much with a full specialty, unless you were to poach something like the faith powers from the Sisters of Battle. You'd mostly be an assault marine with a different flavour.

The way it is now, almost anyone can have their character become a Chaplain.

Dabat said:

I have talked about this myself in some of the other threads, but yes I am very displeased with the concept also. After discussing it with some of the other users of this forum I think I will attempt to make a chaplain simular to an Ascended Career in DH. Not only the is the DW chaplain not a specialty, but he is also not chapter specific? I understand that DW kill-team would seek spiritual guidance, but I am not sure this is something somone knew to being a chaplain would attempt, to guide all the differant chapters at once.

Nimon said:

Did you not read the background text for the Chaplain? It pretty well explains why they are not chapter specific in the DW and that anyone who goes into the Chaplain advance is permanently leaving his home chapter to serve in the DW.

Also remember that the faith powers are something not applicable to space marines since they do not worship the Emperor as a god, but view him as a father figure and the greatest of men.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Aye, it seems a lot of people have:

1) not read through the fluff properly; and

2) were expecting a copy/paste of Chapter-based Chaplains, which wouldn't have fitted in any way in the Deathwatch.

I'm just happy to see a Chaplain of any sort seeing as how they are my favoritist thing evar!

MILLANDSON said:

Gamers want to play the kind of characters they have made chapter chaplains out to be. Full-time job chaplains. Can't blame them for that.

I think part of the disappointment is that the Chaplain does not give a substantial enough close combat bonus. I think the main gripe here is that the 40K's Liturgies of Battle isn't being modelled strong enough in DW. Giving everyone hatred isn't really like wow.

To correct this I would suggest giving the Chaplain a unique "Liturgies of Battle" Squad Mode Ability Attack Pattern which everyone can join regardless of chapter. The effect should be something that really hurts the enemy in cc. Swift Attack or Furious Assault for everyone or something like that.

If the Chaplain had that, it would make gamers at least go, "Yeah, that's cool, bring on the Chaplain." Hatred for everyone doesn't do that.

Alex

For the cost of three Signature Wargear (Master) talents, 3000 xp, you gain three pieces of wargear, three talents, a special oath, and access to a great talent, and an additional list of advances on top of what you normally get. Yeah, that obviously sucks and is a great disappointment.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think you're missing the point made though:

1. People desired a full-time career. The DW Chaplain doesn't offer that. The way Advanced Specialties work, they are more like... extended hobbies and not full-time profession. (Unless I understood the way they work wrong.) People would rather have desired leaving your old specialties behind and getting Chaplain specific levelling.

2. I made the assertion that a number of people have been underwhelmed by what the Chaplain can do. The Chaplain gets no close combat talents - that is no how they have imagined a Chaplain. He doesn't bestow cc bonuses to the kill-team that he's with that make one really go "Awesome." A lot of people want him to be good in cc, improve the cc abilities of team he is in significantly and be a spiritual leader. The first two parts don't come really across.

It's just that the expectations of the Chaplain by a number of people and what was then published has been divergent. And yes it's a DW Chaplain and not a regular one. Doesn't change how some people feel about it.

Alex

HappyDaze: I am alright with the book being rough around the edges. For most things it is pretty clear what FFG was trying to go for and the setting is interesting enough to read that I am willing to overlook a few mistakes. The Chaplain was the only thing i was really disappointed with.

Blood Pact: And therein lays the problem. Nearly anyone can become a chaplain. With no training they can become a priest of their brethren and learn the secrets of their forebears... While away from their chapter. They just suddenly download the knowledge from Emperor-knows-where. chaplains, much like techmarines and (to a lesser extent) librarians are supposed to be chosen and trained that way almost from the get-go, they are not something you simply become because you feel like it.

ItsUncertainWho and MILLANDSON: My problem with the chaplain in RoB stems from the fact that I have read the fluff. I have been playing 40k, or at least reading all the books, for the last 18 years and the majority of my life. Now there has not been a lot written about chaplains and their rites, so I was willing to accept a generic carreer for all chapters like techmarine or apothecary. In all honesty I think I would be far less disappointed with the carreer as is were it avalable at rank one only. As the DeathWatch certainly does not have the authority to suddenly make someone a spiritual ministrater to their chapter. Nor do I see them handing out relics to someone who walks up to the watch captain after a mission and says 'I want to be a chaplain'.

ak-73: Pretty much what you said in point #1 your last post. Chaplain isn't supposed to be a prestige class you can take when you reach 'X' level. You either are one, or you are not. I really don't have a problem with the power of their abilities, while they are not quite as effective as the abilities a chaplain grants on the table top, I feel they fit just fine with the fluff (and the ability to grant every battle brother in the kill team a fear rating is certainly nothing to sneeze at).

Dabat said:

No, they don't. But the Advanced Specialisation in question isn't an Interrogator-Chaplain of the Dark Angels, nor would he be expected to oversee the Death Company, etc. The Advanced Specialisation is for a Deathwatch Chaplain... that is, a Chaplain specific to the traditions and needs of the Deathwatch, chosen from amongst Astartes serving in the Deathwatch to guard over the moral and spiritual safety of their fellow Deathwatch Marines. I'm absolutely certain that the Deathwatch has the authority to appoint its own Chaplains distinct from those in the Chapters from which the Deathwatch draws its members.

As for the matter of "spend XP, become Chaplain"... frankly, the same accusations could be levelled at any character advance any character takes, ever. Using it as an argument so selectively is a double-standard (is it fine for a character to pick up Hatred (Orks) with XP obtained during a mission against the Tau?), and one ignorant (or deliberately oblivious) to the responsibilities of a GM, which include permitting or denying access to certain advances (including Advanced Specialisations - look at the start of that whole section: you only get to spend the XP if the GM gives express permission) and helping to depict character advancement as in-game events/allowance for 'downtime' between missions, etc. If you as a GM don't want players to just "spend XP to gain X advance", then it is your right and responsibility as GM to make that decision and accompany it with whatever RP requirements you deem to be necessary.

The apparently-ignored background text for the Deathwatch Chaplain explains what is required to become one, and covers the fact that they're Deathwatch specific. It isn't FFGs fault if you jump to conclusions as to what the rules represent.

the DeathWatch certainly does not have the authority to suddenly make someone a spiritual ministrater to their chapter.

No, they don't. But the Advanced Specialisation in question isn't an Interrogator-Chaplain of the Dark Angels, nor would he be expected to oversee the Death Company, etc. The Advanced Specialisation is for a Deathwatch Chaplain... that is, a Chaplain specific to the traditions and needs of the Deathwatch, chosen from amongst Astartes serving in the Deathwatch to guard over the moral and spiritual safety of their fellow Deathwatch Marines. I'm absolutely certain that the Deathwatch has the authority to appoint its own Chaplains distinct from those in the Chapters from which the Deathwatch draws its members.

You are correct. I somehow passed over the part where it said that the chaplains presented in that section are specifically DeathWatch chaplains, I really don't know how as I read the section three times before making my first post in this thread. I still dislike the idea of becoming a chaplain after you are quite set in your ways, and (more importantly to me) of not being able to be one from the start, as that was something I was really looking foreward to from this book.

As for the matter of "spend XP, become Chaplain"... frankly, the same accusations could be levelled at any character advance any character takes, ever. Using it as an argument so selectively is a double-standard (is it fine for a character to pick up Hatred (Orks) with XP obtained during a mission against the Tau?), and one ignorant (or deliberately oblivious) to the responsibilities of a GM, which include permitting or denying access to certain advances (including Advanced Specialisations - look at the start of that whole section: you only get to spend the XP if the GM gives express permission) and helping to depict character advancement as in-game events/allowance for 'downtime' between missions, etc. If you as a GM don't want players to just "spend XP to gain X advance", then it is your right and responsibility as GM to make that decision and accompany it with whatever RP requirements you deem to be necessary.THAT, I am afraid, was a knee-jerk reaction to what I have heard called the D&D syndrome*, as I missed the line saying that the chaplains in the book were not chaplains from the chapter to put the rest of the two pages into perspective. Because of that the entire fluff sounded like 'spend xp to become spooky in a way that you weren't before and get some wargear'. I also ask what happens to these chaplains when they return to their chapters. Librarians are still librarians, apothecaries are still apothecaries, techmarines are still techmarines, indeed, all of them came so from their chapter and they can simply re-integrate. But what about these DeathWatch chaplains? What happens to them when their term is up? It is unlikely they could return to their chapters as chaplains as in the eyes of the rites and orders of their chapter they have never become chaplains.

*The idea that Spending XP and/or reaching a specific level suddenly means that secetive groups will desire you to join them even with no story reason for them to do so, ala many of the prestige classes in D&D 3.

And this all still does not answer the question of what happens to someone who wants to play a chaplain? Not a DeathWatch chaplain, But a Storm Warden or Imperial Fist chaplain? If a chapter is willing to let their rare and valuable brothers like techmarines, apothecaries and librarians answer the oath to the DeathWatch, why would the honor bound chaplains refuse the call? I am well aware that the book says they are often ill-suited, but they are not any worse than a hot tempered Space Wolf. If a brother charged with keeping the moral (to them) well being of his brothers feels it is his duty to fufill the chapter's oath, who is possibly going to tell him no?

EDIT: Argh! These quote boxes are killing me! I can't seem to make them work!

I am a bit irritated that you can actually go a Chaplain at all (as long as Deathwatch remains a game about being in the Deathwatch... no problem if they produce a "Space Marine" RPG), as I never even considered the Deathwatch as having Chaplains. It goes along with my irritation at them calling the Deathwatch a Chapter ("No they aren't. They are the Deathwatch. They are something outside the idea of Chapters.").

It certainly would have been wrong normal Chapter Chaplains being seconded to the Deathwatch as they are so Chapter specific. Now personally I never felt that the Deathwatch had all the specialists anyway, but at least Techmarines are Techmarines regardless of which chapter they come from. Apothecaries are a bit more specialised, but they will still have the general skills regardless of who they are. Chaplains, however, only know (and are fairly forceful) about the beliefs and rituals of their own Chapter. They would be a bit rubbish at giving spiritual advice to other marines (or at least no better than any Captain or other senior officer or experienced Marine would be). They would never be recruited for their skills as a Chaplain.

However, these Chaplains have developed to specifically deal with the strange situation that is present in the Deathwatch, and that is through their experience of operating within that organisation (ie not a skill they had before hand... maybe the talent which formed a basis of it, but not the fully developed skill).

And anyway, the fact that anyone (Techmarines and Librarians aside) can become one, and that it requires greater experience than a starting character, makes sense to me. Chaplains are extremely experienced Space Marines, and they have to have come from somewhere, ie they started as a Tactical, Assault or Devastator Marine. And the fact that he is not a dedicated close combat warrior is fine with me as well. Yes, the main image of them is wading into close combat and batting things about is popular, but they are primarily there to inspire their fellow marines, and I don't see them inspiring while holding a good firing position as being out of character. However, it does strike me a bit odd that you do continue as your other specialism at the same time (ie, they are not Chaplains right from the beginning... but when they become one it should be their focus).

ItsUncertainWho said:

Yes, I read it and found it lacking. It would make more sense to come into DW as a chaplain from your previous chapter, then start to learn how to be a DW all in one chaplain. There is just too many rites ect to learn that make an alternate advancement seem a poor start.

Dabat said:

Deathwatch chaplains don't return to their chapters. They become a permanent member of the Deathwatch. This is why they can't be picked as an initial character as I always assumed that before actually attaining the Deathwatch chaplain rank, the marine had been training and studying with a current Deathwatch chaplain in between missions. That gaining the chaplain rank means they've only just now completed their training and declared that they will not be returning to their chapter. Additionally, I always believed that they were being taught only the basic histories and traditions of each chapter. Only what they would need to know to remind the marines of their pasts and the accomplishments of their chapter.

Apologies for the double post. I have no idea how to edit.

I just wanted to add that it actually makes more sense for someone other than a chapter chaplain to be accepted as a Deathwatch chaplain as they would approach other chapters with a more open mind. A blood angel chaplain may listen and hear of the rites and beliefs of other chapters, but in his mind, he's always thinking, "These are good...but the way we do things is better."

Imagine for example, a devout, fundamentalist Baptist minister. Now imagine trying to teach him that the beliefs of a Buddhist, a Muslim, and a tribal witch doctor have equal value, and that he must preach to them in the way they understand.

jareddm said:

I had a rather long response typed out, but in the end it boils down to something simple: The minister, though his training, already has exposure to other faiths that his congregation does not; as well as practice hiding what he really thinks of said other faiths. The brethren from different chapters will be having the exact same debates while with the DeathWatch that a chaplain would, but they aren't as skilled at dealing with other faiths. Even on the slight off chance a chaplain does not have the exposure I speak of, I fail to see how how he could be any more disruptive than forcing Dark Angels and Space Wolves to serve in the same kill team.

Ya know, this is what drives me away from 40K forums in general, the game has become infested with munchkins. Yes, you heard me, you're god **** munchkins! Back when I was new to gaming, people weren't afraid to apply that label to players who cared more about stacking up bonuses and powers than actually playing the game.

When someone talks about what they put in their army, all the responses they get are what would be the most optimal arrangement. Instead taking stuff because it's fun, or thematic, or just different.

So has it continued with the 40K RPG's, I've found much to my dismay. Oh, the Techmarine isn't good enough at close combat. Oh, this advanced specialty doesn't improve my X specialty enough (despite still being a perfectly worth while purchase). Just head over to the favourite wargear thread, people aren't listing the Storm Bolter because it's really their favourite, they're listing it they're trying to take the best ranged weapon possible. And the trend has continued further with Rites of Battle. Oh, the Chaplain doesn't bring anything to the table.. except it does to anyone who's not playing an Assault Marine, for the most part, it really improves their close combat potential

While I would have liked the Chaplain to be a full fledged specialty too, you're acting like it won't work as an advanced package, and that the one who eventually takes it shouldn't need to roleplay their apprenticeship.

I agree, to an extent. People seem to be taking it entirely out of the context of a roleplay game, and into the context of an optimal character generation game. As strange as it might seem, lots of people don't care if their choice of skills or whatever are "optimal", they do it because it works for the character. I've had plenty of fun playing characters that were essentially rubbish mechanically, but they were fun due to their personality and character.

Blood Pact said:

I really have to ask if you read a word I wrote. I don't care what abilities the DW chaplain has. I was looking forward to cracking open RoB and seeing the one facet of a chapter, and arguably the most important facet, that was left out of the main book. Instead I find a cop out specialty with no real fluff based reason for existing. I don't want a copy of what is seen on the table, honestly I think the fear ability the DW chaplain can take may be even a little over powered (though I am not 100% sure, as I have not seen it in game yet). What disappointed me was that I do not have the ability to play a spiritual minister in a lower level game without taking a bunch of elite advances. I don't even care if I don't get the wargear, as those fluff-wise are chapter relics and not likely to be passed on during my hypothetical character's stay with the DW. I had been holding off making a chaplain career because I had heard that one had been coming in the RoB book, and now after several months of waiting I have to make one from scratch anyway. That is what annoyed and disappointed me.

MILLANDSON said:

Pretty much. I have characters I want to play, anything else is just boring. If I wanted to crunch numbers i'll just go back and get another physics degree. I role play to do something fun and take my mind off numbers. In the past for me in the 40k RPGs it has been my close combat oriented Psyker (who was NOT a templar); a scum who never once took a ranged combat talent; a mutant seneschal; a tac marine from a chapter we approximated as a Dark Angel with an arm mounted flamer and no other ranged weapons; or what I was really hoping from RoB, the ability to play a chapter chaplain.

Blood Pact said:

I do agree that pencil and paper RPGs have gotten alot of influence from video game rpgs, where optimum is the only way to go and damm any real attempt at acting out your character. My problem with the Rites of Battle chaplain is more of a Role Playing prospective, for one I do not play DW, i only GM it,(not that I would mind having an opertunity to play mind you). After reading some background in lexicanum on the Chaplains, in addition to what I have seen on the TT, and in the video games it seems that of all the "specialty types" Chaplain is probably the most specialized.

First thing the Rosarius-Gifted to them by the Ecclesiarchy(not the inquisition mind you-so that means a trip to meet and great and spend some time with them, which makes sense since they probably have alot to teach him,)

Second thing The Crozius Arcanum- This weapon is unique, not something picked up and wielded effectivly with out some practice.

Third thing The Litanies- Sure any spacemarine can shout "For the Emperor!", but when a chaplain does it there is an actual manifiestation. You would have as much luck guessing at this as you would any psyker ability.

Basicly if you are good with Chaplain being an alternate advance, might as well just make tech-marine/librarian/apothecay/assualt marine/devastator/tac marine all alternate advances and you just start out a genaric marine.

ak-73 said:

But 5 minutes thought shows this to be an idea that just doesn't work. Chaplains reflect the faith of their Chapter. In DW that would end up with someone getting skewered. Try telling a Space Wolf that his beliefs are 'wrong' - which they would be to a Black Templar Chaplain. See how things go when a hate-fuelled Mortifactor Chaplain is told that his faith is heretical by a puritan character.

Chapter Chaplains simply do not work in DW. They would never even get sent there. Just as DW characters are selected for their attitude, the Chaplain is pretty much the antithesis of what DW are looking for.

Also, the idea of someone joining DW and training as a Chapter Chaplain just doesn't work. By all means create advancement trees for Chapter Chaplains if playing a Chapter-based game, but the idea simply doesn't translate to DW.

Siranui said:

No but what would have worked was a full-time chaplain career. This is not about the faith of a particular chapter. It's about the amount of dedication you pour exclusively to being a chaplain. As it stands DW chaplain is merely a modification of an existing career.

Alex

PS I should add I have never been a huge fan of chaplains myself.