It may sound weird, but I wish the 1st Company Veteran had contained a restriction that Ultramarine characters could not take it. At this point in the timeline (scant years after the 1st Tyrannic War) they don't really have a 1st Company. It's being rebuilt from the ground up after being wiped out. They have anti-Tyranid experts sure, but the 1st Company at this point would be very small, and made up of veterans of other companies promoted to the 1st.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Isn't that exactly what a Deathwatch character that gets promoted to 1st Company status while wearing the silver pauldron is going to be once he goes back home?

H.B.M.C. said:

Per the fluff in the spec description, you don't automaticly become a part of the 1st company, but when you come back home to your chapter, the leaders have little choice but to consider you for a place in the 1st company. And considering how Smurfs barely got one, I'm sure that they'd be more than happy to place you into the ranks while building it up!

H.B.M.C. said:

Eh? You can't take the speciality until half-way through the game. You don't get awarded the Crux-T before joining the DW. You potentially get the awarded the honour and then can elect to take the speciality package the during gameplay. It takes 60 renown to receive the Honour (as per main rules). If you check the fluff it talks avout it.

Actually i like all the advanced specialties, from the RP perspective, though most of them have to be errataed to a degree, as with the most parts of that book. They introduce depth to a character as well as a means of horizontal progression rather than a vertical one which is always nice. As so often with Deathwatch, great concept and idea, final implementation mediocre at best (due to numerous reasons).

I like the implementation generally, apart from a few errors.

I think that a lot of people perhaps saw these as something you added to an already specialised character to become 'more uber'. Anyone who is expecting that or looking for an obvious 'power up' is going to be disappointed. Those who are looking to these specialities to broaden a character or for RP reasons is probably going to be pretty satisfied.

Siranui said:

I have to agree.

The advanced ranks are there to add depth to a character. They are not meant to take someone from Uber to SuperUber.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I doubt that the suggestions I have made in the chaplain thread would have done that though. And advanced ranks like the chaplain cannot be just there to add depth to a character. They also need to live up to expectations of battlefield role.

Alex

I'm not sure how they'd fail to do so, though?

Siranui said:

Well, have a look at my suggestions in the chaplain thread.

Alex

ak-73 said:

The difference is that not everyone has the same expectations. Mine were met since I view the Chaplain from the skill aspect of what they do, not by how well they bash skulls.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Do Chaplains have better cc stats than Tactical Marines in the TT? Are they on par with Assault marines or even better? Hasn't that been consistent through the editions? So it's not hard to see why someone would have expected more than they got.

One has to wonder whether this isn't some form of anti-powergaming over-compensation.

Alex

If I knew that I wanted to play a chaplain, I would pick assault marine as my specialty. By the time you can chappy it up, you should have some good CC talents like counter attack, wall of steel, and lightning attack. The chaplain element would bring in some skills, fearless, hatred everything.

Also, their equipmet is really good IMO. The Crozius is an excellent weapon and the rosarius is also nice.

If you choose a different starting specialty your chaplain wouldnt be very CC but I figure most people wanting to play a chaplain will go assault marine.

ak-73 said:

Couldn't tell you, and don't care. I don't play TT. I don't put any stock in comparing a TT and a RPG rules wise since they are completely different beasts.

With that in mind, I am guessing the Chaplain in TT has better stats. Now is that because he's a Chaplain and they are CC monsters or is it because a Chaplain on TT is a special character, instead of a bulk unit choice, and represents a more experienced character than a run of the mill AM?

Secondly, you think Depth over Power is a bad thing?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Well, I'm merely explaining why I think some discontent is coming from. See, this is the Space Marine RPG. And I think it stands to reason that it should allow players to play the characters they have known from TT for years as much as possible. It is both from a gamers as well as a business perspective a good day.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I think in the current TT he is a HQ choice that has about the same stats as an Assault Marine, in particular 2 Attacks. So I think he should be given at least Swift Attack if not Lightning Attack. That is the first part.

The second part is the question of whether Chaplain should be an exclusive specialty. Again it would be more faithful to the tabletop if it was.

The third thing is that it's not depth vs power. They'd have the same depth either way. It's about focussing what the chaplain in combat is about and making him effective (but not over-powered) at it.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Inappropriate comparison. Characters in the wargame are inherently better than non-characters purely because they're characters - higher stats, more wounds, more attacks. Or should an Assault Marine, Devastator and Tactical Marine have all the same characteristic advances because they have the same stats in the wargame? Should Chaplains and Librarians have twice as many wounds than everyone else, just because they do in the wargame? I could go on.

It's that sort of comparison that fails to account for the natural biases and inclinations of the wargame, such as the significant differences between "hero" models and the "faceless grunts".

ak-73 said:

This, I think, is the first rational reasoning I have read from any of the "DW Chaplains Suck" camp.

The background I have read, in the novels, didn't make Chaplains out to be anything special career wise. They were chosen out from among the line troopers due to zeal and leadership ability (Fellowship, not necessarily command skill). They were then taken and trained as Chaplains. This, to me leads to the advance and not a full career.

To me, the Chaplain in combat is about motivating troops and keeping them focused, not being the best at hitting things. I am sure a lot of Assault Marines have become Chaplains, by their nature they are prone to lots of zeal. That doesn't preclude a non-close combat specialist from fitting the bill. I have no problem envisioning a Dev Chaplain chiding the assault marines for being to slow at dispatching the Emperors foes while he lays wastes to dozens at a time with a heavy bolter. When he runs out of ammo, he drops the heavy bolter, pulls the crozius and wades into the fray shouting that he decided to give them the chance to catch up to his kill count.

Swift and/or lightning attack are not unreasonable, and can easily be elite advances or just tacked onto the class as a house rule, I don't believe they are necessary. As it is, the Talent that chaplains can get allows them the option to give everyone who charges a free re-roll on WS, that ain't shabby, especially on top of the other abilities they get.

Personally, I don't think any normal chapter Chaplain has any business in DW, as they are going to be way too focused on their own thing. Can you imagine a Dark Angel chapter Chaplain trying to motivate a Space Wolf?

Chaplain from the DA addressing a Space Wolf: "My Primearch beat your Primearch, do as I say you mangy dog!"

A DW Chaplain from the DA addressing a Space Wolf : " Remember when Russ put aside his pride and followed his brother during the battle of X! Follow his example now and we shall achieve victory!"

A little exaggerated, but probably not by much. There is a big difference in they a Chapter vs a DW Chaplain is going to be trained. That difference may just be that the DW doesn't care if you can fight in CC situations but how well you can handle the differences between chapters and interact with them.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You're making it too easy here. We can for example compare HQ models with each other and then do the same with their counterparts in DW. Librarians get swift attack in rank 3 and lightning attack in rank 4. In 40K they have 2 attacks, just like the chaplain.

And of course we can do some comparison to rank-and-file troops because in DW the chaplain is an advanced specialty, rank 4+.

But all of that is leading away from the core... the Chaplain in 40K has a cc flavour, both personal as well as in support role. The DW chaplain has not so much of that, only a hint of it. Yes, he can be made into something similar but it's not inherent to the DW chaplain, it is not his focus. His focus is solely spiritual.

My personal opinion is and please bear with the repetition: it's okay to do it like FFG has done but if I had been in charge I wouldn't have done it that way because I would have wanted to give the players a near-tabletop experience as much as possible (novels chaplains I admittedly don't know that well). That's why I probably would have set it up as suggested in that chaplain thread.

@ItsUncertainWho: "They were then taken and trained as Chaplains. This, to me leads to the advance and not a full career." Taken and trained. That implies they are taken out of their old Devastator squad for example and trained as a Chaplain from that point on. It would hint at Chaplain being an exclusive career with its own advances. But in DW the Devastator remains a Devastator as before, he just learns some additional talents/skills. Also that they need to pay add additional 1500 xp to get Icon of Duty. And they need to spend a fate point everytime they want to get the re-roll on a charge.

But okay, I was just trying to explain why there is a 'DW chaplains are meh' camp; gap between expectations and reality, I think I'm done.

Alex

ak-73 said:

In that case, I want to play a Chapter Master. Why is there no progression table for a Chapter Master? Or a Dreadnaught, from rank 1.

Yes: People have high expectations for Chaplains, based on the 'hero level' status of the TT figures. But this isn't TT (and even if it were, it would still be points based...) and those expectations need to be balanced with the other classes. If people want a Chaplain to be anywhere NEAR as good as an AM, with leadership nearly as good as a Tac, plus a whole load of hatreds and special abilities, then they need to temper that thought a bit.

Siranui said:

Yes, if you are a Rank 8 DW Captain, you are probably qualified enough to become the chapter master of a newly founded chapter. And I would like you to revise your comments in the light of the alternative suggestion I have made in the chaplain thread.

I don't believe what you said here holds much water in that context. And I don't think tkis needs to temper his proposal for a full career chaplain a bit either: He's got good leadership but can't share squad modes. He becomes an above average but not spectacular melee fighter quickly. He has those hatred and special abilities which all fail to impress in a major way. Yep, his chaplain (even though I would have handled it differently) isn't a no-brainer choice. A specialty that ranks in melee inbetween Tactical and Assault, has access to a cheap command skill and can do mediocre buffs isn't op in my book.

Like I said, I think some people here might be over-compensating.

Alex

You can say 'you', rather than 'some people'. I won't be offended.

And to be fair: Yes. I'm firmly of the opinion that fan-created material should be pitched low. It should be in line or slightly inferior to the average character option. I am VERY wary of power-creep, and extra options for characters should be just that: An extra option. If a player really wants the flavour then they won't mind trading a little power for it.

Siranui said:

Well, if I had meant only you, I wouldn't have been too shy to address you personally but I don't think it's just restricted to you.

While I basically agree with your notion here, I don't see the players as my enemies. Instead I see myself as an enabler... in the case of DW as an enabler to let them play pretty bad-a** marines. Correct me if I am wrong but in my estimation a Chaplain who was decent in cc, would give the whole team a good cc buff and was a spiritual leader would make for an appealing concept to many players. But would it be over-powered? I don't think so. In combat the BA Assault Marine and the Dev with Unrelenting Devastation or the Tac with Storm Bolter would probably still reign supreme. The Chaplain would be a decent melee character though and he would have situational buff: he could make the whole team into cc monsters for one turn, the turn of the initial charge.

If that concept gets players fired up and go "Hell, yeah" I have done 50% of my job as GM. If the concept in practice doesn't turn out to be game unbalancing, I have gone the full mile even.

That's the problem we had with the Space Wolves. SW fans didn't go Hell yeah. I don't think the Apothecary makes players go Hell yeah. I see the same thing with the Chaplain.

Part of game design is striking the right balance. I think FFG has been too conservative wrt Space Wolves, Apothecaries and Chaplains (also Melta and Plasma). I think they have not been conservative enough with Blood Angels and Bolt Weapons. But all of that is also a matter of taste, for sure.

Alex

I don't see my players as foes, either. However I fear that they would be if I said 'Hey, everyone else play from the rules. But seeing as Joe here wants to be a special snowflake and keeps complaining about how bad the published Chaplains are, then instead of saying 'tough' or maybe making a minor errata, I'll just go write him an entire career progression that's better than yours Mr. Tactical Marine*.' Specially-written character options that are stronger than existing ones are a great way to get every player around the table petitioning for MOWR POWAR to my mind.

Part of this stems from the fact that I don't see the Chaplain elite advance package as a weak option, whereas I see the written Chaplain full advance scheme as a strong option. It would certainly be enough to put the hackles up on Tactical players with the cheap WS advance.

A 4th Rank AM with the Chaplain special advance would do everything that the players wanted from the role in my eyes. They just have to wait to 4th rank, just as other players have to wait to get their termi honours, captaincy, champion status, iron halo or whatever. If a player wanted to be a Chaplain before then, then just play a BT and re-fluff or buy a few relevant skills and claim to have been a Chapter Chaplain and then wait for 'the real deal' at rank 4.

Enabling one player's dreams of uberness 3.9 ranks earlier than everyone else's seems very unfair on everyone else around the table. Good things come to those who wait.

I don't think any of the Elite Packages are strictly 'hell yeah' in the 'now I'm BETTER than I was before because I bought this book' sense. They all have nice fluff and special stuff, but none of them are 'better'. I think it's a great -and refreshing- approach.

In other news, the SW 'issue' and that of plasma and melta clearly seems to have registered with FFG, due to some of the RoB content.

*Before it's said that the tac has the advantage of sharing chapter skills, it should be pointed out that RoB has four different mechanics that duplicate this ability, without recourse to Command checks. so much for that advantage. I'm not saying that I don't wholeheartedly approve of the mechanics, it's just that the Tactical marine's special ability is now easily bypassed and mooted.

Siranui said:

Have not thoroughly went through that particular section of the book yet, but it seems to be a nod to all the whining which went on and on in regards of not being able to share chapter specific modes, and how bland and overpowered it is to have a squad composed of mostly same chapter. RoB in general is a huge nuissance for me as a GM as it SCREAMS for massive houseruling.

Siranui said:

By your standards the librarian is an über specialty though. Good characteristic advances, tons of skills, powerful psy, mighty force sword as starting equipment. Yet it is not a totally unbalanced specialty.

Siranui said:

Yeah and guess what? I have had many people tell me back then that the Space Wolves were just right as published. But enough people have made a compelling enough case and FFG responded in the errata by adding Counter-attack and Flesh Render for which I applauded them. (Just as I applaud them for responding to the helmetless issue.) They didn't do the modifications that me or other folks suggested but that wasn't my expectation anyway. Their fix was good enough to make them at least capable enough in close combat. Heck, I remember long debates about how Space Wolves weren't really a close combat chapter and all. Does any of that sound familiar?

In short: I hope that FFG is listening to this debate and will ponder what has been said. It would be unrealistic to expect though that they'll turn the Chaplain in a full blown career. If there is some discontent (and I think there is discontent similar to the Space Wolves wrt the Chaplain now, both having a passionate fan-base out there), it goes well to listen.

I don't know if there will be anything in the errata as this is something that isn't easy to fix as mentioned. But perhaps it will make FFG pay attention with further publications. Certain chapters of specialties or whatever stir up more passion than others. For example, the Iron Hands chapter seems to have a quite passionate fan base. If I'd have to create rules for them, I'd make very sure that they have a wow impact without being overpowered. White Scars fans tend to be quite passionate too, I think.

Siranui said:

That too sounds like it might be a reaction to a debate here about learning squad modes from each other, growing together as a team. I'll have to see the implementation yet to comment on it. Oh well. Anyway, there is still the option of becoming a storm bolter monster with Bolter Expertise.

Alex