I've been looking over the advanced specialities, and noted their usually very high xp cost prereqs, and the often redundant and very overpriced talents and skills in their advance tables - and I've asked myself, "Is it worth it, to purchase any of them? (pure RP-purposes not included)".

For example, the Black Shield, its advance table could be considered a "chapter advance table", but it more or less contains what you will find in the rank 1 space marine general advance table - a bunch of redundancy skills and talents which any space marine start with. Sure, it's free, and you get some abilities, but the table makes me wonder.

Another example, and the one making me ask the above question, Deathwatch Champion has an entry cost of 4000 xp. It could be seen (especially from a RP perspective) like more or less a "natural choice" for an Assault Marine (which was what I was basing taking the specialisation with), but more or less every talent on the champion's table you can find on the AM's tables for half, third or even a fourth of the xp price. Sure, you get access to some higher ranked talents a little earlier, but they often cost three or four times as much. The earlier access to Dodge+10 and +20 are nice, I'll admit, and so are the Signature Wargear: Hero talents, as well as the Xenos Bane ability. Other than that, it just seems overpriced and redundant. A Tac wanting to focus on melee might would be content with those prices, not having access to them at all, but he'd not be able to get many before reaching rank 8, considering how much they all cost.

4000 xp for the specialisation with Xenos Bane included in the price. 800 for the cheaper skills, 1000 a pop for the sig wargear talents and the rest you can get much cheaper, although perhaps a little later (but by spending xp on the things you want, you'll probably reach a higher rank anyway) - most talents you've already gotten, or can get soon without dumping 2000 xp on something. Just doesn't seem "worth it". But hey, maybe I'm just too concerned with building myself a well-rounded character while affording all the talents I'd like to get and have fun with?

I've not looked too much on the other specialities, but I think it's pretty much the same there. Forbidden lore: The Black Library for 800 xp on the Epistolary's table, when it costs 400 xp one rank earlier on the Deathwatch table? Yeah...

I haven't done cost compares yet to a lot of things, but the book is overed in alot of reprints. I think some of it is meant to be helful if you'd like to roll space marine characters who AREN'T deathwatch, as interesting as it sounds to have a Deathwatch Ep. who isn't deathwatch. Least that's how I think it goes.

I think beyond the character advance table, that one of the primary benifits is the wargear you get, and the abilites you get with them. I've never gotten up to higher level characters as high as this yet, but also at that level, some of these costs might just be sneezes as well.

Just preliminary thoughts.

Mechanically speaking, much of Rites of Battle is poorly done. Great ideas, but very rough work done on putting proper balance into things. As you've noticed, the Advanced Specialties are particularly craptastic.

Frostfire said:

Doesn't make a lot of sense making advanced specialities for non-Deathwatch characters. :/

And on the wargear you get from many specialities (which I actually forgot to mention), it doesn't say what craftmanship they are. If it's just common, that does not often seem like a boon, as by rank 4-5, I'd assume most players will have a higher quality main weapon, which means they won't have any use at all for the free wargear they get. A nice GM would perhaps let you switch any free wargear out to something more preferable, but yeah, that'd be a house rule.

I think the best advanced specialty is the Kill Marine, I like the ability and especially his skill set. The rest seem kinda "meh" or too expensive.

The one that I absolutly hate, is what they did to the Chaplain. That should be a specialty all of it's own. And the only requirments rank 4(besides can not be tech-marine librarian,) So a tac-marine with no previous experiance as a chaplain, is not suddenly giving spiritual advice, not to mention the fact that you are somehow supposed to be familar not only with your own chapter's rites, but all those in your DW kill team? Seems way off the mark. And their abilities are pale compaired to faith talents in BOM, in fact I might re-due the chaplain specialty I had made along time ago with those faith talents.

Mechanic-wise I guess you could make your character more well rounded with some of the other alternate advancements, but like you said if you are already an AM, the entry cost not work Champion(talking strictly mechanics wise). There would be some nice RP benefits, honors ect., and I do enjoy my players doing that.

BrotharTearer said:

I meant a non-deathwatch space marine. Not like a RT or DH character. I do agree with you on the wargear though. A master crafted Rozarius would go a long way, and make sense.

To Nim, I like the idea that a Chappy is an advanced speciality. Unlike the others, where Tech marines train at mars for 30 years, Librarians are signled out before they even get trained, and Apotheciares have to get medical training from way in the beginning, I'd say that a Chaplin has to be ready for it, experienced to lead, that he can't get at rank one. However, you are right, that I'd think a few more reqs should be required showing you taking that step. Id' say that perhaps with it, as a GM, that they might have to go through an innitation rite before they are given their marks of office, or prove themselves as Chappy's first.

I was refering to non-DW SMs too.

On the chaplain: Grimaldus of the Black Templars was somewhat experienced, and showed quialities which the Chapter's Chaplains felt would make him a good Chaplain, so they invited him to the reclusiam and all that where he became a Chaplain of the Chapter. That kinda sounds like what would happen with the Deathwatch Chapter. The thing is, there has to be some scope of "training" attached to the spending of xp and aquisition of the advanced speciality. You don't learn a bunch of stuff about a bunch of chapter traditions and all that over a day. This would mean some time must pass, and that his usual Kill-Team will be without him for some time, until he'll rejoin as a Deathwatch Chaplain. Or atleast, that's how I see it. Compare to Transition Packages of DH Ascension.

Frostfire said:

Yes, that is a good point on the Chaplains needing experiance, but isnt that the Idea in DW that your space marine is already experianced? And of all the specialties this one is really Chapter Specific/probably even more so then a Librarian, when it comes to their abilites.

Experienced yes, but Chappies are really experienced. In Table top mechanics, they are HQ level. Fluff says there should be in a codex chapter 1 chappy per company, meaning that out of 1000 marines in a chapter, there are only 10 of them. They are known to shout the litanties of hate while guiding their brothers in battle. This puts you on a leadership level You're not a captain, but you're up there.

Frostfire said:

Hmm, well possibly then what I might do is consider them to be an Ascended Career, like in DH you start as an acolyte then eventually become an inquisitor or at least rub elbows with them, in DW maybe after rank 9 you could Ascend to Watch-Captain, Chaplain, or some other HQ level character.

Frostfire said:

Are there more Apothecaries than one per Company?

HappyDaze said:

Actually, yes - Codex: Space Marines lists the Ultramarines as having 12 Apothecaries and a Chief Apothecary within the Chapter's Apothecarion (which may or may not include those on permanent attachment to each Company; the book doesn't say one way or another), which provides them with more than one Apothecary per company. Some Chapters, such as the Red Scorpions, have a great many Apothecaries, with them serving as squad leaders as well as medics.

Technically, it may also be possible to speak the same of Chaplains - one is assigned to each Company, but they're all part of the Chapter's Reclusiam, which may include additional Chaplains beyond the "one per company".

Ok, yes, there may be more Chaplins, but the point I was trying to make is that a Chappy tends to have more experience in terms of a leader,a nd they wouldn't start as a speciality. But then again, it's all really vague. Perhaps starting as a speciality is like you're training to be one. But I like the advanced speciality because it allows most marines to become one, so you could have an devistator chappy or an apothecary chappy.

I'LL HEAL YOU WITH MY RIGHTEOUS FURY!

Talking about less-than-optimal editing: Requirement for the Watch Captain: Command +20. On the advancement-table for the watch captain: command, command +10, command +20 ...

BrotharTearer said:

You got a point. But the general question is what we do expect out of advanced specialties or new specialties if there were any? Sure not über-PCs?

Alex

For me they serve the purpose of flavor and story. All other considerations are secondary and malleable.

The moment I become unable to tweak clumsy mechanics into fighting form is the moment I know my brain rust has finally won.

o6sidian said:

That's FFG for ya. Editing is an increasingly lost art. Ever read any of Alderac Entertainment's L5R stuff? (shudder) Proof that the youngsters are getting a poor education.

But as I've said before, better shaky 40k RPG than no 40k RPG at all.

This saddens me, I didn't really look at the tables for the Careers and compare. Just saw them as interesting. The costs to buy in did worry me though.

If any of my soon-to-be-players want to become a Chaplain, they'll have to show interest and start training a long time beforehand in game time. And I may well tighten up the entry requirements. RPing restrictions should always overrule what is technically allowed in the rules.

They're great, and here's why:

They're not no brainers.

It's a difficult choice. Taking one isn't automatically an advantage. Unlike say D&D 3.5 where NOT taking a prestige class was generally dumb, and so the whole prestige system just became power-creep. Buying RoB for the advanced options does not automatically make your PC better than someone's who hasn't rushed to the shop. I personally don't like the GW/WoTC way of doing things where everything newer is better. Newer stuff should provide OPTIONS for those who want them, rather than simply more leetness.

It's arguably perhaps as good not to bother with the classes. You might bother for roleplay reasons. Or you might want a snacky piece of gear, or you might be so desperate for advanced combat stuff that you're quite happy to pay through the nose for them, just to get them early.

They're also less use to highly specialised character is some ways. Already built an uber-leader or uber close combat monster? Then the specialities are perhaps of more limited use. This is a good thing: It doesn't particularly up-power the already beardily-statted character. At least not cost effectively, anyway.

Finally and most importantly you might just want the cool abilities. Somtimes these are just worth it. The 1Coy veteran ability is alone worth 2000xp. The DW Champion's 'distract' basically gives enemy hordes a -20 to hit everyone else if it's used. That's brilliant.

Siranui said:

Yeah that sounds just right. That said, I am still not impressed by the DW Chaplain. In my view, he should have turned the kill-team into a serious melee thread. His battlefield role would be one of spritual leader and cc buff/support. Doing so wouldn't make the specialty a no-brainer choice either. It would just be a more appealing option. The point to advanced specialties should be battlefield role niches. But appealing niches - plus advancement charts which make the PCs effective in that niche role.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Some, such as the Keeper, Epistolary, and Forge Master are not really battlefield roles. They certainly perform an expanded function for the Deathwatch, but it's not really intended for the battlefield.

I really like the first company veteran. Its got a lot of useful stuff on the advances and cool special abilties. The cost isnt that expensive either. The only hard part is earning the crux terminatus, unless your gm will let you start as a former 1st company vet.

I think you make an excellent point Siranui, one I didn't see before and compeltely agree with. If you look at 3.5 then to 4.0 D&D (ew. 4.0), Prestige classes (or Paragon paths as they call them) are a must, and if you don't take one, you're actually considered less on the overall average. And I hate that idea, in every fiber I can muster, along with their concepts of "You have to buy this book to play" which went from 3 to like 9.

So Kudos