Lynata said:

Have you run a game using the rules as-is, yet?

Before the RPG we had hundreds of illustrations clearly showing a difference in size between bolt pistols in Astartes hands, compared to everyone else. I'm basing my magazine observations on any of the several hundred different space marine models produced before the current edition where the pistol magazines are vastly smaller than the longarms.

So now it's a 'scaled down' replica? When before you said it represented the dimensions of a boltshell accurately?

A Deathwatch Marine *cannot* have a strength bonus of 3. I am correct in thinking that you've read the game?

Actually, a weapon's dimensions do have an effect on 'damage', as a longer barrel results is more muzzle energy...

Y'know what: I hadn't really thought about it much and took a number off the top of my head.That's because I because I like the way I run and play my games the way that I do, and have justified my personal opinion on the canon that I and my players are most familiar with. The Angelus is my house-game is a very heavy, serious grade custom sniper rifle, complete with recoil suppression. It needs to be, because Astartes boltguns fire massive shells, compared to 'mere' mortal boltgun rounds. That's because the Astartes are massive slabs of muscle, superhuman in nearly every way, equipped with the finest power armour - each piece practically a relic in its own right - and bearing weapons far to powerful for others to fire.

Because that's how my game world rolls.

YMMV.

The differences in damage, could be as simple, as the SM bolt round, just being heavier because it has a more powerful / more explosive in it, for the same size of round.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I know exactly what the caliber means. The point I was making is that being a rocket propelled round, it doesn't do its damage from impact so much as exploding, which is where caliber is THE most important factor in damage. In addition, all the bolter ammo is the same. Bolt Pistol, Bolt Gun, SoB Bolter, Inquisitors Bolt Pistol, etc. They may all be different size weapons, but it doesn't matter with rocket propelled ammunition thats all the same caliber. That is not a circular argument. Its a valid point and backed up by fluff.

Lynata said:

1- Its not cheap cop out, its realistic. One is on average say 6 foot and 180lbs, the other is at least 7 foot and 300 lbs, closer to 9 foot and who knows what with Power Armor.

2- How exactly is an Acolyte going to reach Astartes level strength? For one, Astartes have unnatural strength trait, so even if an acolyte somehow manages to come off with 100 strength, a Space Marine with Strength 50 and Power Armor will be stronger (Acolyte Strength bonus 10 vs Space Marine Strength bonus 12). Its not really feasible for a normal human to be able to progess to Space Marine standards. He may be able to match them in one or two areas, but overall the Space Marine is called super human for a reason.

BrotherWill said:

No, caliber is not the most important factor- it is a factor, but it is only a single factor. Again, caliber is the diameter, not the overall size of a given round. A .50 pistol round is different than a .50 rifle round and magnum rounds are different than 'standard' rounds. And the fluff you reference isn't really backed up by FFG.

BrotherWill said:

FWIW, full PA makes both SM and Mortals "Hulking." Without PA neither marine nor acolyte is considered that large. There is nothing stopping you from making an enormous non-marine, either.

BrotherWill said:

Don't forget PA gives everyone +20 (+10 for light PA). And certain ascended classes can get US.

Overall the cheap cop out comment, I think, was meaning that the 'existing' fluff before FFG's bolter adjustments say boltguns are all the same and do the same damage, and there is not a substantial indication that there is a difference between the gear say the astartes and the sob carry.

WingKia said:

You are indeed right sir- the proposal has been suggested before, but simply is drowned out in the our passion to prove our points

Siranui said:

In modern weapons without rocket powered ammo you are correct, though as noted previously there are bullets designed specifically for shorter barrels; the issue being that the longer the barrel the longer the explosive/gunpowder has to propell the round, and this chage burns faster than standard in order to give the bullet the same velocity and energy as if it has been propelled by a standard charge in a longer barrel.

That said in the light of this argument, with a larger round you can fit more of that gunpowder, meaning if standard boltguns had this magic powder the astartes would have at least the equivalent, but more of it and then you're back to having more energy as the round is expelled from the weapon (which I still argue would need to be at at least the same velocity as the rocket engine to ensure a steady trajectory).

Siranui said:

We also had hundreds of illustrations to the contrary. I can also show you illustrations of Non-Marines wielding bigger guns than Marines. Artist interpretation varies.

Siranui said:

Funny, the picture was actually from 4th Edition, and I know for a fact that my 2nd Edition Ultramarines have identical magazines. But aside from newer stuff overriding older stuff (making this argument void by default) I also question your memory. Feel free to follow my example and look up proof if you think you can find some, though. Do take note that in 1st Edition, all magazines were smaller, though.

Here is a bunch of licensed/official images from various books and codices, by the way:
Bolt Pistol images
Boltgun images

If you prefer miniature images, just google "bolt pistol sprues" or "boltgun sprues" and switch to image view. Happy hunting.

And once more, the fluff clearly states that bolt pistol ammunition = boltgun ammunition. Has been so for ages...

Siranui said:

Shocking: I did not know! Actually, I still don't - I'm just assuming you won't step so low and lie. I do not see how this changes anything, though. A replica is a replica is a replica, and as such should be representative of the real thing regardless of scale. And once more, if you absolutely want to discount this, take a look at your DW book which backs this up.

Siranui said:

Perhaps if you would read my posts more careful you would notice that I never said anything like that.

A Deathwatch character is created by adding 2d10 to 30, which results in a minimum Strength of 32. Unnatural Strength doubles this number so we end up with "~30x2", exactly as I wrote. And it's still equal to ~60.

Siranui said:

Rocket-propelled ammunition. Also, bolt pistol damage is equal to boltgun damage, despite the shorter barrel. Next ...

Siranui said:

Well, in this thread we discuss the official world, not yours.

BrotherWill said:

7 feet is the current official size for a Space Marine, and power armour is something available to other people as well. More importantly, I don't understand why some people automatically assume that a power-armoured Space Marine's Strength is the lowest possible limit for firing an Astartes-grade boltgun. This does not even make sense when you think about that this is the same level of Strength that would have the same character use a heavy bolter of larger caliber - which I'd wager is somewhat harder to control than a bolt pistol.

When we have the Angelus, which allows everyone (even that scrawny SB2 Adept) to fire Astartes rounds, I do think the term "cheap cop out" is applicable given that it's supposed to be so hard everywhere else. Not to mention that the RAW do not even check for your Strength - they go solely by your Astartes title. What, you are an Acolyte who managed to roll double 10s during character creation and now have 70 Strength with power armour and bulging biceps? Tough luck, this Space Marine with Strength 60 can, but not you. Because he's a Marine, that makes him more awesome!

You think Orks, Bloodletters or Gun Servitors are strong? Nope. Not nearly strong enough to use an Astartes bolt pistol...

Charmander said:

You are indeed right sir- the proposal has been suggested before, but simply is drowned out in the our passion to prove our points

Yes, the last discussion basically ended at exactly that point since this is the one theory I'm not able to call into question without going against what FFG/BL wrote. The above is just to show that it doesn't even make sense if we stay within the rules of this RPG. That GW's fluff concerning this topic is different has been established and proven - I hope.

The ammunition simply being more powerful would be the most likely explanation under these weird circumstances. Of course this doesn't really explain why no-one else uses it, despite having access to much more devastating/archaic/rare weaponry.

Oh and: Thanks for the (really) extensive feedback! Though I do have to say that I didn't intend to re-write the entire game. I basically just expanded upon the "SB4+ or -10BS" idea that was presented in the Inquisitor's Handbook, and took into account various fluff sources or miniatures of normal people who use bolt weapons (Arbites, Guard, Sisters). In the end I wanted to make it "fit" better to what we know (knew?).

If I were writing the game, I would not have given Unnatural Strength to Space Marines. They would have a high Strength (50-70) and the power armour would be what grants Unnatural Strength. This would apply to the Sisters, RTs, and Inquisitors with power armour too (although their base Strength is likely closer to 30-50).

HappyDaze said:

You could do that, but I think the point of the Unnatural Strength trait was to demonstrate that SM are that strong through genetic engineering and normal humans can not get that strong without manipulation, no matter how long they had that membership at Vic Tanny.

Edit: I hate you quote system. I hate you in Chrome, and now I hate you in Firefox, too.

"Funny, the picture was actually from 4th Edition, and I know for a fact that my 2nd Edition Ultramarines have identical magazines. But aside from newer stuff overriding older stuff (making this argument void by default) I also question your memory. Feel free to follow my example and look up proof if you think you can find some, though. Do take note that in 1st Edition, all magazines were smaller, though.

If you prefer miniature images, just google "bolt pistol sprues" or "boltgun sprues" and switch to image view. Happy hunting.

Rocket-propelled ammunition. Also, bolt pistol damage is equal to boltgun damage, despite the shorter barrel. Next ..."

Wow... just wow. You're trying to argue with me about the content of my own minis collection.

And telling me how to use Google. Wow.

And telling me that my opinion and game mechanics for my own game are 'void' somehow because I haven't continued to update my minis, and my old ones are now 'wrong'.

To be honest, 30 seconds of searching (whish is all I'm willing to do, because I know what graces my shelves) doesn't uncover much in the way of RT-era Astartes minis. So you'll have to just take my word when I tell you that back in the happy days of $15-20 for 30 plastic marines, boltguns had vastly 'wider' magazines than pistols.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pbFJndlkB6o/TH9O_9lelVI/AAAAAAAAAVM/MRwoNVICeRI/s1600/17058_md-Artwork,+Copyright+Games+Workshop,+Rogue+Trader,+Space+Marines.jpg Shows a bunch of Astartes. figure in bottom left has a smaller pistol with a much smaller magazine. That's my era. That's my player's era. That's how we roll, and our own game universe has more than enough internal consitancy to keep us all happy. Pistol rounds are shorter. Just like the real world.

Yes, I know that the damage in the game is the same. I was just trying on pedantry for size.

Now; to cut back to my question; have you tried running -or even playing- the game 'as is'?

"a Deathwatch Marine can have an SB of 3 as well. ... Perhaps if you would read my posts more careful you would notice that I never said anything like that."

!!! Except when you said exactly that...

"Well, in this thread we discuss the official world, not yours."

Lol. No: This is GMs and players comparing ideas. Not an excuse to pedantically argue for fun. Your ideas are no more valid than mine.

"You think Orks, Bloodletters or Gun Servitors are strong? Nope. Not nearly strong enough to use an Astartes bolt pistol..."

I really don't have a problem with things as demonstratively large and strong as Astartes to use that power of weaponry in mechanical terms. If anything with 40(x2) strength and power armour (or what I consider an equivelant strength.) picks up an Astartes bolter it seems bizarre for them to not be able to handle using it (ergonomics and machine spirits permitting, of course).

"The ammunition simply being more powerful would be the most likely explanation under these weird circumstances. Of course this doesn't really explain why no-one else uses it, despite having access to much more devastating/archaic/rare weaponry."

There's a few possible reasons, including larger warheads, more powerful ammunition that's the same size as 'mortal' ammunition, and the old 'angry machine spirit' cop-out thing.

I think that nobody else using it is a good thing for the game, because DH characters would be burning fate points very quickly when faced with side-arms that -on average- remove all of their wounds in one blow. Even DW characters won't last very long under a hail of Astartes-grade weapons. Monsters with massive damage out-put are a tricky thing to manage.

As for 'why don't the IG use them', then one might just as well ask 'why isn't our army equipped with 7.62mm NATO'. There are logistical concerns, and Astartes HB ammunition might weigh twice what small IG ammunition does, for example. It be deemed as wasteful overkill to use massive Astartes rounds. More powerful ammunition might have 20 times the cost in resources (in the same manner that tunsten penetrator rouns in WW2 were more effective, but too scarse to use heavily by the Axis later on in the conflict). Or maybe just Astartes ammo can only be made on 50 forgeworlds in the galaxy. I'm not stating these as fact; merely throwing open the doors to the idea that there is more to equipping troops than simply giving them the biggest, baddest weapons.

One could also argue that maybe the Imperium doesn't *want* to give the grunts who are going to be used by any Governor with a bit of ambition and dreams of independance weapons capable of blowing holes easily in the elite guys who are going to be sent to put down the rebellion. America isn't keen on giving its latest military hardware to anyone it might end up fighting, either.

Finally there's the idea that these weapons really are a cut above the rest, and suitably archaic and rare that the technology either isn't there for others in the Imperium to use, or the access to it is controlled. We're talking about a stagnent society here, that does things because 'that's how it's always been done'. If the Emperor of Mankind said "here's a pattern for an Astartes bolter" it not unrealistic that the Mechanum only makes them for Chapters, or that they are perhaps constructed to secret and jealously guarded patterns 'in house'. I guess in much the same way that smiths who made composite steel blades typically only made them for those of the warrior classes and allies of their lord. Not only through loyalty, but because they don't have time to make 'spares' for anyone else who wants one.

The church pushed it's luck in raising an army by dodging the rules, so it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief that they decided not to push it further and risk a couple of angry Chapters turning up on the doorstep by demanding that the Mechanus start churning out Astartes-grade weapons and munitions for them.

HappyDaze said:

I like the Unattnatural Strength thing. It avoids the old problems of WFRP1e (and indeed 3.5), where dragons and things would still be on the same strength terms as PCs.

Siranui said:

I can relate on that one.

Siranui said:

I can only tell that both my own miniatures as well as what I saw on the 'nets shows the contrary, and that this has been outright stated in the books time and time again.

Siranui said:

[ Image ] ?

Now, this is not to say that they may not have simply made several different designs - I just don't think that, even if this should be the case, you should argue based on something that did not exist anymore in 2E. Else I could just as well tell you how Sororitas used to police and wtfpwn the Marines back then, who in Rogue Trader were more like convicts and gangers rather than the genetically engineered superhumans they evolved into. RT was quite different from anything that followed.

Siranui said:

Looking at the same picture in a larger version , the magazine appears quite the same. Certainly it is not "two to three times as deep".

Siranui said:

Nope! Still "stuck" in two other games/campaigns, and due to missing interest amongst my local friends it'd have to be an online game, anyways. I don't see what this has to do with a discussion about fluff and perceived (and, imo, pointed out) illogicality, though.

Siranui said:

Ah! Now I see what quote you are referring to! Yes, I see now that I should have worded that less confusing - but keep in mind that this was a follow-up to a post where I clearly stated that this was before adding in Unnatural Strength ("[...] a Marine with SB 6 (Scout with SB 3 + Unnatural Strength) [...]"), and I kind of expect people who discuss things with me to keep things in context. Reply #113 on page 8, if you want to look it up once more. All I said in the following posts was that a Deathwatch character uses at least the same characteristics.

Siranui said:

I'm not quite so sure this is the case. Re-reading the first post, this thread seems to be about the RPG differing from the TT and the 20 years of fluff that came with/from it.

Siranui said:

Absolutely - what does seem bizarre for me, however, is why do you assume that it takes a Marine to use a gun like this? A Marine boltgun is lighter and smaller than a "normal" heavy bolter, which can be used by normal people. A Marine boltgun fires the same ammunition as the Angelus, which can also be used by normal people.

Siranui said:

That's why I think nobody needs them. 2d10 (which is on average the same damage as the other bolters) was fine for the Marines in DH, so why the change in DW? It doesn't even conform to the other weapons in its own RPG, see useless plasma.

Siranui said:

That wasn't referring to the IG but for the people who have both the resources as well as the influence to get their hands on that kind of stuff. I do know why the lasgun is the weapon of choice for the Guard.

Siranui said:

You mean keep churning out. They are still using the same armour and weapons that they had under Vandire's rule, and it is said that he got them the best there is. Which is the reason why their gear has been described as, and I quote, "equal to any Space Marine Chapter" by GW.

Siranui said:

If the PCs acquire "magical" items sufficiently enhancing their bodies, why not?

I mean, the average Strength for an ordinary human is still ~30. Going beyond that is what makes some individuals stand out and qualify for greater roles, though even then their maximum Strength is still capped at levels that do not apply for a Marine. So why Unnatural Traits? Multiplicators have never been a good thing in any game. Apart from likely breaking game mechanics and being a ***** to balance, they also create gaps that cannot be overcome by "go-betweens".

Lynata said:

We'll just have to respectfully disagree on what's in my minis collection then. They're all 1st ed, bar a few pieces.

You're kidding as regards the pic, right? The one labelled 'field police'? That's clearly a fraction of the magazine size. You say it's not relevant, aren't au fait with RT-era minis, and are still arguing that I'm wrong?

If you are familiar with the game or not bears a relevance when we talk mechanics, as you don't seem very unfamiliar with them, and aren't in the best position to discuss balance issues of play without having any experience. The OP was after all about play-balance within the game, not fluff at all. The question posed by the OP-er was if not DW characters 'deserved' to keep up in combat with Astartes and our thoughts on that matter. That's where the question marks are.

Once again: The Angelus is a custom-made heavy sniper rifle. In my games it's treated as such. For a real-world comparison, look up '20mm ATR' on google pics and you'll get some images of 20mm rifles. That's how I see the Angelus, or - at best - as being the size of a Barratt Light 50. There's a massive difference between those being in existence, and people wandering around firing 20mm or .50BMG assault rifles and pistols. So the Angelus isn't really relevant.

As can clearly be seen from the stats, the IG heavy Bolter clearly isn't firing the same things as the Astartes version, or even the Astartes pistols. So that's a bit moot too. Plus - of course - it's a crew served weapon. .50 BMG HMGs being in existence does not mean that there are .50BMG assault rifles or pistols, either.

Fine for Marines in DH? Erm... no. It was 'fine' for the writer of a single, poorly written scenario, for the purpose of outfitting an NPC. And plasma isn't 'useless'; especially if you charitably consider the variants in RoB to be errata of a kind.

As for your comments about strength for dragons and humans deserving to be on the same scale, my defence would have to be 'because it's absurd'. WFRP1e made it possible for an elf to get themselves a STR of 9, sans magic. So that should be able to kick the ass of a variety of larger critters in an arm-wrestling contest. It was a poor, poor mechanic that saw hugely strong creatures only narrowly stronger than puny humans. The Unatural stats are a great idea that fixed a major problem.

Siranui said:

I'll do a side-by-side comparison with both Marines scaled to their respective size once I get home, then.

Siranui said:

Funny, doesn't look that way from where I'm standing, given that he specifically mentioned how Sororitas bolters are supposed to be similar. Balance is part of the topic as well, in a way that he would like to know if it would break the game if Sororitas would receive the weapons they were supposed to have. This has been turned into an argument about Sisters not deserving such weapons anyways due to some misguided idea about Marines absolutely having to be superior even where 20 years of fluff said they aren't.

To quote the renowned Melissia: "Despite what the fanboys claim, Marines don't always get the best, and even in cases where they do, it doesn't mean they're the only ones that get it."

But maybe OP can clarify for us if you really feel this is not what the thread was supposed to be about.

Siranui said:

Nowhere in the description does it hint at sniping, though it is a valid conclusion based solely on the stats. That aside this does not change that you can fire this rifle without bracing and even single-handedly, something I am pretty sure you should not do with a Barrett. So can we stop comparing apples and oranges for a change?

That aside I would again point you to the actual size of an Astartes round which you can also look up in your DW book if you don't like the official replica. It's a bit jarring to see people constantly return to the ridiculous idea that Marine shells are somehow supposed to be thrice as long as everyone elses despite both images and fluff to the contrary.

I think you keep forgetting that we're talking about rocket-propelled ammunition here. First-stage propellant does not need to have a massive kick, simply because its only purpose is to get the shot out of the barrel. Yes, bolt weapons still have enormous recoil (something which sadly doesn't really come across as such in the RPG), but the idea that it is as strong as if you'd want to fire a single-stage caliber 0.75 bullet is flawed, simply because it doesn't need as much energy. If it helps, try seeing the rocket motor as enabling a .50 Desert Eagle bullet achieve as much power as a .50 BMG without increasing muzzle energy and thus recoil, resulting in what is essentially a Barrett that you can fire with a single hand and without bracing.

Siranui said:

Because it throws a wedge in your claims?

Siranui said:

That depends entirely on if you look at Astartes weapon damage in DH or DW. If you haven't noticed, there is a difference between the games.

Siranui said:

Not exclusively.

Which only goes to show that people who are able to fire a normally crew-served weapon by themselves and without bracing should easily be able to use other guns that use the same ammunition as the Angelus.

Siranui said:

Curiously, however, they do exist .

Siranui said:

See, and I think it is absurd that a naked Marine can easily get tougher than the armour he wears.

I think things are a little more complex than just saying that strong (or augmented) humans or weak dragons do not exist. In case of doubt, magic did it. Or the Machine God.

Would anyone object to an Ogryn of sufficient intelligence (BONE'ead or mutant) using Astartes weaponry? If so, then why not?

I think other people might have a 'problem' with a mutant using weaponry of the sacred Astartes, but practically... not really.

Unless of course you subscribe to the schools of thought that Astartes weapons either have machine spirits that will take offence and not function for lesser beings (especially mutants), or that they have built in biometric security to stop others using them. Which isn't much of a stretch, considering similar measures currently exist.

Lynata said:

Your kidding right?

What other purpose does a heavy, single shot, 3 round, accurate, basic weapon have other than as a sniper rifle? Are you going to charge into a firefight with that thing, shoot off your 3 rounds then spend the next 3 reloading? Do you think that outside the game world it would be possible to fire a boltgun one haded? Do you actually think it's possible to fire a .50 pistol one handed IRL?

I had thought some of your arguments and reasoning were flawed, but this is shear silliness and just being contrary for no purpose.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Firing Astartes ammunition? Similar to how that .50 BMG pistol can only take a single shot, yet it got made. Keep in mind the Angelus is just as custom-made and not an assembly product. I do not find it hard to believe that a professional serial production model will be able to utilize the same ammunition with greater rate of fire. Like, you know, a proper boltgun.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I didn't make the rules, I'm just using them to argue the silliness of the whole thing.

Please make up your mind on if you want to argue using real world physics or 40k ones.

Lynata said:

.50 pistols are not what I would classify as "accurate", "basic", or "heavy" weapons. They are a pistol, and not accurate enough to warrant having an extra trait added to them.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Of course it is possible. **** near anyone could do it once...

Charmander said:

I thought it should be clear that this comment was meant in reaction to the claim that a weapon needs to conform to a certain rule instead of simply being built because it's possible.

Regardless, I'll leave the argument now. It's useless. You "win".

HappyDaze said:

That was kind of my point.

Lynata said:

I was taking the question in the OP to be the statement that was followed by the '?'

Whether GMs deem a well-trained mortal equal in skill and physical prowess to a biogeneticly enhanced soldier created by the Emperor himself, from his own genetic code for the express reason that normal humans weren't good enough to be his elite troops is their choice. Although I guess it's not really: What are the comparable stat-lines in 40k like these days? Do SoBs equal Astartes? Because if they don't I can't see how you are possibly claiming they are 'equal'.

(Good luck on firing .50AE single handedly, btw...)

The Angelus completely doesn't throw a wedge in claims. It reinforces them to the hilt. It's just that you're kinda bending over backwards to try to make it fit your interpretation. It's very clearly a sniper-type weapon. Just look at it, and the stats.

There is a difference between games in the stats of Astartes bolters. Specific trumps general, though (and a game about Marines is pretty specific). Or we can pull out the argument you bought forward that newer information 'voids' older data. However, the only Astartes bolter stats I can think are are the afor-mentioned cardboard cut-out plot device on an NPC and the Angelus.

You went out and looked for information on a one-off prototype two-handed pistol with a fraction of the power of a 'real' .50BMG weapon which in game terms most certainly requires 'bracing' to fire safely to somehow prove a point? You're actually harming your own argument, given the nature of the weapon.

Erm... 'magic' does not do normal stat-ups or the 'strongman' WFRP talent. You can get str 9 characters without any resort to magic, wherea I believe *all* dragons are only str 10. Clearly this is a bit daft, and that's the age-old issue that unnatural stats sought to avoid. Because it *was* a bit of an issue, just in case you are unfamiliar with the way things used to work, or the low-magic nature of the RPG's setting.

Siranui said:

You mean like this.

or this.

javascript:void(0);/*1300486961761*/

or this

Me thinks many here are not really into firearms, but perhaps more into firearms books. I am very much into it and my buddy has a .50 DE and we fire single handed all the time. You simply need to know what your doing and what to expect. Its not hard, its not impossible as demonstrated in the above vids.