Just looked in the actual Stats of FFG.

Funny, the "Scourge" Bolter has a little less range, in + and Pen does a little less damage, weights 5 kilos less, no full auto, 4 shots less, and is reliable but lacks tearing.

As i stated earlier: ever thought about that in Bolters the Tearing is part of the damage? at least for DW.

A word on munitions: Boltshells have a relative low rate of fire, heavy Bolter with 120 shots/minute the most, typical Astartes bolter 48/minute Bolt pistol 36/minute. and this is considerd: holding down the target with semi/full-autofire. Non-Astartes Weapons even less.

A standard 1960's Gyrojet rifle has an RoF of 60/minute, but the tend not to be this extremly noisy and the Problem with the velocity of under 20m due lack of starting the thrusters. Sabot would also make no sense, Bolters throw out ammo caseings. What works: due lack of Knowledge and to sound cooler! it was named: Micro Rocket. Makes perfect sense, explain most things. But to be honest its just normal HEAT/HEAP rounds, just with a lower rate of fire than even an 50 year old Vulcan-cannon, and about as much or less devastating power.

Point is, trying to work with pure scientific logic doesn't work. Especially in a SienceFantasy scenario, wich deviates from a broad game

Btw: this little DH/RT vs. DW is a little ridiculous. In the End, despite this x2 T/S bonus they are overall worse than a typical Acension DH guy, expect for their gear.

and to be honest: Marines feel like super tough guys and so but.... well even a little genstealer with his 65WS that scores a good hit kills your defender of mankind in one round. Trust me, my players respect them

Charmander said:

Well, theres some easy solutions to this. First, as far as the weight and size is concerned, thats really irrelevant. The caliber is the same, which means the performance of the weapon overall should be very similar if not the same. Sure, you might get a bit of accuracy or range differences or ammo capacity and ROF, but seeing as a bolt shell is more of a rocket than a bullet, the damage is dependent on the caliber of the shell and not the weapon that fired it, as would be the case with a slug weapon.

As to overpowering DH characters, its pretty simple solution. Bolt weapons tend to be oversized in general. You could make it a size issue when it comes to firing them and say non-Astartes characters suffer an accuracy penalty when firing due to bulk. That way they get massive damage as a bolter should do, but its harder to hit with it, as it should be for a human wielding such a monstrous tool of death.

BrotherWill said:

I wouldn't do it like BL/FFG and draw a blank line between "Astartes" and "Non-Astartes", though. That's a cheap cop-out. If an Acolyte manages to reach similar levels of Strength then he should very well have access to the same options.

Generally, I like how they did it with the Sacristan bolt pistol from IH, which requires an SB of 4+, imposing a -10 BS penalty to anyone else. One could argue that this isn't severe enough (especially when it comes to SA/FA), but the idea in general sounds good.

This is what we did with bolt weapons in our current game, by the way: http://dark-heresy.wikispaces.com/Bolt+Weapons

Still needs lots of playtesting, of course. So far we only did talky bits.

BrotherWill said:

Ungh.....

As has been touched on in numerous threads, caliber is purely a measurement of diameter and nothing else.

Below is an officially GW sanctioned replica Astartes Bolt PISTOL . Since it is a pistol that is almost two feet in length, a human could never use it as a pistol, nor as a rifle, effectively.

Please don't let this degrade into the same circular arguments as in the other threads.

ItsUncertainWho said:

+ 1,000,000

RE: Fluff: If you don't like the retcon that's done in DW, DH, and RT with boltguns then please for the love of god go into the houserule forum and come up with new ideas that fit your personal vision of it better (see Lynata's link- P.S. Lynata you should post in the HR forum if you want feedback).

My point on balance is that when you're inserting an epic level gun doing 2d10+5 pen 5 into a world of 3 tougness bonus, 3 AP, and 10 wounds you'll end up with a lot more dead PCs. This is regardless of fluff opinions, it's simply a matter of balance at this point.

I still don't get what's supposed to be so convincing about this photo. Nor do I see why no human shouldn't be able to use it if you'd give it a smaller grip. The only difference between a bolt pistol and a boltgun is the amount of shells in the magazine as well as a longer fore grip. In fact, most bolt pistols do not have a fore grip, so what we see on that photo is clearly oversized. Slap another 5-10cm of length on it and you have a fully-fledged boltgun.

Aside from gun size =/= recoil. Actually ... funny fact but a heavier gun gives you less recoil.

I feel obliged to agree about the balance, though (leaving aside the criticism on 2d10+5 for DW itself). The damage that bolters do in DH feels alright, keeping in mind we're talking about a roleplaying game where weapons simply aren't supposed to be as effective as one might think they should be in terms of realism.

Simultaneously I should point out, however, that by the time Acolytes have managed to acquire a bolt weapon their opponents should either be somewhat above the "world of 3 TB/AP" or show up in sufficient numbers. Bolt weapons are not only rare they are also difficult to control. That Dark Heresy lacks any mechanics to limit their usage to comparatively strong people is a little disappointing, but nothing that cannot be houseruled - though this does not prevent future material to continue building upon this perceived flaw.

As for the argument itself - how can it not be circular? One side points towards (potentially) outdated fluff and simple logic, and the other side points towards the new dogma of "Marines > you, regardless of how strong you are". The only thing we can agree on is that in this RPG, things simply are different from what we were used to know and that common sense does not necessarily apply when you limit weapon usage based on career instead of actual stats.

Lynata said:

Cost: 500 Thrones, Avail: Very Rare.

All depends on your world and GM, as Very Rare is a standard (+0, Challenging) Inquiry check in a hive or a Very Hard (-30) check in a town. If you've got a decent Inquiry, per RAW (+20 can be gained by rank 4 Arbitrators), making that test is far from impossible.

And I'm not talking about killing enemies regarding balance, I'm talking about killing PCs. 15 pen 5 damage average with burst fire will kill off a lot of PCs, even at higher ranks, as not everyone will build a fighter type.

The fluff argument is still (unfortunately) valid, but the core is: do you accept what FFG did, for whatever reasons, or do you HR it otherwise?

As for the 'simple logic' I have to disagree as the caliber argument isn't a debate, it's using incomplete understanding of caliber and modern weapon systems to argue why astartes bolters can't possibly be more powerful than the DH ones. And the marine > you based on strength can also be routed around via FFG fluff, as you can interpret why 'humans' get penalites to wield astartes weapons (in addition to the size thing) in different ways including a theory one forumite posted long ago saying 'what if astartes weapons used biometrics to keep non astartes from using them, so that's how in game you get the rebellious machine spirit rules'? The sidebar is, intentionally I'll wager, vague. Maybe a cop-out, but it's how they decided to keep the uber guns out of a DH game where it could screw things up in current and future games, and it's a lot eaiser to manage than trying to figure out how to jury rig in new strength rules for the big boy guns (and folks have already complained the game didn't do enough balance testing to start, this would just compound it).

Charmander said:

Ah, I suppose I should have been clearer. By that comment I meant when characters should gain bolt weaponry in my opinion - which isn't as early (or, alternatively, up the Cell's enemies and mission importance instead of letting them start out as trash). I'd actually go so far and say that bolt weapons are too common in DH. Which goes in line with their lack of physical requirements.

Let's just say I did not expect a military-grade cal .75 weapon that has always been described as having a massive recoil and only being in use by elite Imperial forces being purchased by Scum and Adepts in a shop 'round the corner. But ... that's just my perception of the setting.

Charmander said:

If your enemies show up with such weapons, sure. But it's really not like DH truly lacks any weapons that can have a similarly devastating effect. At the same time, making the boltgun less common also means the chance that your opponents will have one will be smaller. And it all comes down to how challenging you want to make the encounter, anyways - naturally it should be somewhat scaled to the Cell, if they aren't stupid and actively seek out a fight with something they can't handle. But if the egghead with TB/AP 3 runs in first before the specialists can check the room then ... well, grim darkness is grim.

Charmander said:

It's not even that. It's that the system doesn't even make sense in itself. If a character can fire an Astartes-round with the Angelus Carbine there is virtually no reason why he shouldn't be able to use a proper boltgun with the same ammunition. Likewise I don't see why a character whose Strength is similar to a Marine is suddenly supposed to have trouble with recoil. It just doesn't make any sense!

Charmander said:

Which is actually true. At least according to the old fluff. Not that all Astartes weapons would have it. My criticism is centered on the idea that apparently nobody should be able to use Marine- grade weapons, not actual Marine weapons. For example, the Godwyn-De'az is likely just a variant of the Godwyn whose grip is scaled for normal people for ease of use and that lacks the armoured housing.

I still agree about keeping the "uber guns" out of DH, though. Actually, I'd also keep them out of DW, given how they seem to f**k things up (especially the heavy bolter) and seem to make stuff like plasma weapons useless. It would have done much for inter-game compatibility if people's weapons would differ as much as they do. I'm honestly curious how they intend to solve this in "Daemonhunter" and "Black Crusade".

Lynata said:

Because it's a carbine, and carbines typically shoot at a lower velocity than their full sized counterparts primarily due to size...and I've not seen the angelus carbine stats so I'm guessing when I hypothesize it's smaller/lighter than the astartes boltgun. Though we're leaving out rocket propelled ammo, but physics need not apply to 40k . Angelus is also the only reference I know of in the existing RPG outside of the stats in DW that even talk about firing astartes rounds- uber easy fix is to give that ONE gun a damage buff; a 2d10+5 would still be one of the strongest weapons in DH, and other weapons don't hit that until you get to meltas/heavy weapons, which are considerably more expensive and trickier to shoot (well, base bolt weapons, not the Angelus special rules)

Before you slam the DW bolt weapons, give DW a try with a solid GM that can plan your encounters out to create a challenge. You may find them a bit wonky and require some tweaking, but IMO you don't need to wholesale remove them or remove a damage die from their profile.

RE: Scum finding boltguns in the shop around the corner; the inquiry rules are also vauge, and it doesn't directly correlate to thumbing through the phone book to 'ye old bolter dealer,' it also represents finding black marketeers. And I'm just citing the RAW here mind you, not how individuals (including myself) play.

Charmander said:

A carbine is still longer than a pistol. And even if that would be an issue (which it shouldn't, see my SB argument): just hand out carbines then - changes nothing about their actual stats, after all. Rocket propelled ammunition ftw.

Charmander said:

Yes. Curiously, the gun being 6 kilos lighter would realistically mean it is harder to control than a heavier version. At the same time the Angelus is also 1.5 kilos heavier than an Astartes bolt pistol which fires the same ammunition as the boltgun...

And yes, I know it's easy to "fix" the Angelus. That's not the point. My point is that it is obviously and clearly possible for normal people to fire "Astartes"-level ammunition. But for some reason there's a dozen people in this forum claiming it ain't so because Marines are oh so big and way more powerful and it would totally ruin their image if anyone else could fire guns with similar destructive capability, never mind that it has been so for 20 years. And for some reason the rules totally back this up. And it still doesn't make any sense. Phew.

Charmander said:

Nah, I don't question that I would have fun in such a game - that's not it. I'm just saying that everybody would profit if there wouldn't be such a massive gap in (weapon) power between the games. Marines because their encounters would actually get more challenging even if you have a heavy bolter ( ) and because it suddenly makes sense to upgrade to plasma, and DH/RT peeps because they wouldn't feel "emasculated" due to being told their guns are crap and they'll never going to wield something as nice as that, and because then we might actually have crossover games where combat characters wouldn't need an Exitus rifle or OP Ascended Psyker powers or dual-wielding meltas to be useful.

I know you'll likely mention epicness and the need to frag enemies in an eyeblink now, but this can just as well be achieved by tweaking the stats of the enemies or simply using the Horde rules if you want to convey this kind of image. Or by simply adding 1d to every weapon there is, regardless of what game you play, as generally this kind of epicness should be possible everywhere if the group feels like it.

Charmander said:

Yeh, it's the worst case scenario, but it doesn't really change much. The books flat out tell you that bolters are now used even on backwater planets, and did you notice how everybody and his aunt seems to carry a bolt weapon in the illustrations? Granted, this fits to the fact that apparently everyone can use them (even that scrawny Adept with 24 Strength), but to me it just looks like some sort of inflation. Not that it's that much of an issue, but I do see it as a symptom of the "DH/RT bolter = autogun v2" image.

Lynata said:

In FFG's 40k, only in that example, which I agree tends to be an oddity.

Lynata said:

I won't argue that there are people that don't like the idea of reducing damage or increasing DH damage in the case it will weaken marines, I'm arguing from a balance and gameplay thematic perspective, regardless of prior fluff. HRs are the way to modify the game to fit your tastes, especially should those tastes run counter to some of the design decisions, and I think you're onto something on your bolter page- IMHO needs some polish but the foundation seems pretty solid.

Lynata said:

Or could it be that everyone loves bolters, and rather than make them an elite caste marker that they arguably are in some fluff, they make them mildly difficult to get and give just about everyone the access to the weapon proficiency so everone can feel that they have a chunk of the Empire? Thus the gimping, and thus the theme conflict with DW...a theory mind you, but it seems solid enough to me.

Charmander said:

But wouldn't it be better for the balance and gameplay in DW, too? How many threads have there been discussing the weapon stats (be it because supposedly superior arms seem useless in comparison, or because the heavy bolter is a bit overkill in general)? Do you really feel bolt weapons need this additional die and there's no way around it? (honest question, no polemics)

Other than that it's not even that much of an issue to me - the perceived incompatibility is just a sad fact causing problems when mixing the games. What really grinds my gears is the way some people argue, effectively talking other careers/factions down by this insistence on superiority in every single field, even where it was (once?) clearly not supposed to exist, and using arguments that don't hold up to closer scrutiny - which is why I resolved to writing that long list of what I feel are debunked justifications.

Not that it would change much. I guess in the end I just want people to understand my argumentation and see my side of the coin, even if it won't change the game itself. After all, I've been quite bullheaded about it - if I would have backed out without providing sufficient explanation/justification for my reasoning I would've just looked like an ignorant troll (I likely still do to one or two posters, but those are cases where I don't care).

Charmander said:

Oh? Um, if you have any ideas ... I've revamped them twice already because the first version didn't feel comprehensive enough and the second was way too much numbercrunch (as you can still see when scrolling down). It's a bit difficult to find the right balance between conveying the general idea without letting it slide into a nightmare of rules upon rules. I confess it's also somewhat fun, though.

Charmander said:

Absolutely - they are a signature weapon of the entire franchise. Let's just say I'm not a friend of this sort of catering - not when it ends up hurting the overall style of the setting...

Note that I'm not advocating to reduce their presence significantly - introducing a Strength requirement and "fixing" some of the descriptions to let them seem less common would likely suffice. As for the gimping ... I actually think the damage is okay - considering this is an RPG where it's normal for weapons to be relatively forgiving.

Lynata said:

And probably the ammunition. Rifles don't use the same ammunition as pistols, traditionally. Bolt pistol magazines are not as large as bolt gun ones.

Umm... one side is not devoid of logic, no matter how much you disagree. The idea that 7' superhumans with unnatural strength and power armour can fire weapons that are bigger and badder than someone with a third of the muscle mass isn't much of a stretch. If you don't like it in your games of Deathwatch, then change it. But at least try it first.

The Angelus bolt gun is a single shot custom sniper weapon, not fully or semi-automatic. The idea that it's got a bunch of recoil compensation not possible on a smaller weapon and *still* kicks like a mule is fine with me.

Siranui said:

It is actually stated in the fluff - including the RPG books - that bolt pistols and boltguns use the very same rounds. Astartes bolter rounds are surprisingly small, as per the official replica.

Siranui said:

So, in your opinion, how much weaker is a Non-Marine with SB 6 (veteran Acolyte with SB 4/5 + Power Armour) in relation to a Marine with SB 6 (Scout with SB 3 + Unnatural Strength)? And this is keeping in mind that Marine Scouts can, in fact, also carry and use Astartes heavy bolters without much of a problem...

(and just as a sidenote: muscle mass =/= strength)

Siranui said:

Should characters with greater strength and/or stuff like Power Armour and Bulging Biceps not be able to use something that kicks even more, then? The Sacristan bolt pistol does seem to have greater recoil than the Angelus - at least this is a bolt weapon that actually has a Strength requirement.

For the purpose of playing and running the game, it works well enough. And that's what counts. Again: If you want to change it so that DH character's bolters are horrifically out-of-balance with everything else in the armoury, or for Astartes to barely be able to graze the foes they face in DW, then that's fine. It's just not going to convince everyone.

The fluff contradicts, repeatedly. A 25mm rocket, complete with explosive warhead and conventional propellant is going to be pretty darn large. Boltgun magazines *are* larger than the pistol ones in artwork. Plus, the 'official' boltergun round isn't even the 'official' calibre. *Maybe* GW were more concerned about material expenses and practicality of wearing it for decoration than about canon. The replica produced really isn't overly relevant as evidence. Citing 'official' sources when those sources contradict doesn't help.

I know muscle mass isn't strength. I didn't say that it was. I was speaking only about the obvious bulk, not the specifics of who could bench X times more than who.

Maybe the Heavy Bolters used by lowly Str 3 Scouts who don't wear power armour is a 'standard' Imperium HB, not a fully fledged Astartes one. That solves that little problem and makes perfect sense.

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

Siranui said:

It's not been that consistent. In fact; it's clearly *not* given that we're even having this conversation.

So you're happy to ignore common sense, based on a replica that runs contrary to fluff?

Ammunition is not stored end to end in magazines. Magazines that hold more ammunition are wider and/or longer. They are not two to three times 'deeper', as can clearly be seen on every model that holds a bolter.

There should be some kind of Godwin's for people on RPG threads that say 'Strawman', 'false dichotomy', or 'Stormwind'.

You weren't talking about fully-fledged Astartes. You said 'scouts with a SB of 3'. That's a normal human strength bonus. You're blatantly contradicting yourself to try to score points.

And y'know: I probably *would* object to Astartes casually hip-firing heavy bolters full-auto, not wearing any armour, without any kind of bracing.

And sure: Maybe mortals with an unnatural strength stats and equivalent power armour could fire Astartes weapons. I never said they couldn't. I'm not really sure what your point is here, aside from trying your best to disagree.

I think that if they are going to go with two different sizes of weapons divided by the strength and size of the user, then the decider should be in the SB. If an Astartes Bolter has a SB requirement of 6+, then anyone (Inquisitor or Rogue Trader in power armour, Ork, Kroot merc, Battle Sister, whatever) that has SB 6+ should be albe to use it. Being a Space Marine doesn't magically make you able to use bigger things in an of itself, it does so by boosting your Strength (and SB) so you can wield the weapon. If others have that same level of Strength (SB) then there's no good reason they shouldn't use the big guns too. This certainly includes Sisters in power armour, and I'd even consider Sisters to have a special Talent that might treat their SB as a bit higher for determining if they can use Bolt weapons.

The issue with that is that Marines aren't just stronger. They are physically bigger. Their weapons are bigger, their vehicles are bigger, an Astartes chainsword is more comparable to a Guardsman's Eviscerator. Consider that an Astartes actually has difficulty using 'mortal' sized weapons. Moreover, when it comes to Unnatural Strength has more benefits than just the strength bonus. They actually get a bonus modifier to any strength tests, and that says to me that on top of the raw strength, it speaks to denser, more effective musculature.

HappyDaze said:

Although I broadly agree with the first part of your post (And I'd probably draw the minimum line at about SB8, which is as low as Astartes with armour go, I think you're pushing it with the quoted statement.

After all: Maybe the Astartes have that too and that's why they can use their weapons, so even if the Sisters had it, it still wouldn't be enough...

Data007 said:

They are 'slightly' bigger. It's not enough of a size difference for them to be an actual size category larger - Space Marines outside of their power armour are not Hulking yet a typical human in power armour is Hulking so it makes no sense that size prevents the power armoured human from using a full-sized bolter while the smaller unarmored Space Marine has no problems handling it.

It is cooler if Marines are substantially bigger than mortals. And the rules do say they can pick up an SUV and throw it at someone.

Siranui said:

Before this RPG virtually every source of fluff treated bolt weapons as being similar in destructive power and we've even seen Marines and non-Marines use one and the same model. So where exactly did you read something like that? Where do people get these ideas from?

Siranui said:

Common sense is what's driving me to push this argument. And a scaled down replica doesn't run contrary to fluff similar to how a 1:20 replica of an F-14 jet doesn't run contrary to the real thing. And given that I have provided an alternative source of information you maybe should not get wound up on this one just because this is the one instance where you were able to find something to criticize.

Siranui said:

Two to three times? Pray tell, what models have you been looking at?

Bolt Pistol <-> Boltgun

Apart from the length it's the exact same size. Which fits to the fluff, if you'd just take a look at the books.

Siranui said:

That's no contradiction - a Deathwatch Marine can have an SB of 3 as well. I was using the Scout Marine because he wouldn't wear power armour together with his bolt weapons, thus eliminating the armour's strength bonus. I honestly didn't expect anyone to claim that Marine Scouts use Non-Astartes weapons ...

Siranui said:

What do you need Unnatural Strength for? A "mortal's" Strength of ~60 is the same as a Marine's Strength of ~30x2. Unnatural Stats are not what I consider normal - I'm talking about all those people that have used bolt weapons in the fluff before, either because they happened to be extremely muscular or because they owned power armour.

Data007 said:

All true, but that's not really an issue. It just means the weapons they were handed have been optimized for their size. You can also get different sizes of pistol grips in the real world. As long as they still fire the same ammunition it doesn't affect their damage.

Also keep in mind that Space Marines are only considered "tall" by Imperial standards. We do have cases where Marines and non-Marines used the same bolt weapon.

Siranui said:

And by that you just made the caliber 0.75 Astartes bolt pistol require as much Strength to control as the caliber 1.00 Astartes heavy bolter. Okay...

Perhaps you should consider my theory for a moment, instead of clinging to finding ways that insurmountably separate Astartes-grade from "mortal" bolter weapons just for the heck of it? I admit I'm sort of fascinated by the idea that you insist on Marine bolt rounds requiring 80+(!) Strength to be used at all, when normal bolt rounds of the same size and caliber have no requirement whatsoever (which admittedly feels wrong as well). Especially since we are merely talking about first-stage recoil here - something that is only supposed to get the missile out of the barrel before its own rocket motor kicks in.
And since we have the Angelus still proving you wrong, anyways.

Lynata said:

Again I'll site theme, mood, and action that dictate that in this system, for a Marine to accomplish what the stories say he can, they need the extra punch. Now whether the extra damage and the enemy stats etc. and is perfectly balanced, IMO no, but I think that's fixable with tweaks and good GMing.

Lynata said:

I don't disagree that if you want to portray the 40k I know you need much fewer boltguns in general, and they should all do more damage, and a strength/size/what have you modifier is the most logical one to me. That being said, I'm not mixing a game in which I have combat characters that feel disenfranchised. It is kind of sucky the games aren't cleaner to integrate, but it's certainly not an easy solution to merge all the different themes together.

Lynata said:

I'd consider upping the strength requirement to the 'heavy class' boltguns to something more like Happy suggests with a 6. This means you need to have a strength 40-something and be in PA, which seems reasonable to me. I'd also not allow bulging biceps to simply ignore the penalties, but I'd have to look harder and when the different classes are able to get them. It would also be worth investigating the strength advancement tables to see when players can reach that level of strength to further limit when in the game people can get their paws on them (meaning if you can get a hold of the strength requirements too early they might need a bump up, closer to 8 as Siranui suggests)

I'd increase the shooting penalty if you fail the strength requirement to -20 or simply prohibit its use.

I like the full auto biceps and PA rule (that you need both to not get penalized for shooting full auto), but I might consider adding something that says to the effect of if you are 2 beyond the base strength requirement you can fire it without PA.

For Heavy Bolters, in bulging biceps should be required to not brace the weapon as per standard rules. I'd consider the PA as a requirement to use without it being braced, but if you go with an increased size standard (see below) you essentially hit this rule anyhow.

For 'heavy' grade weapons I'd consider sticking with the rule that outside of power armor the weapon classes are considered one size larger- pistols become basic, basic becomes heavy, heavy becomes mounted. You go up to hulking in PA, make the heavy/astartes grade weapons so the same. Looking at the imagry, for the heavy grade weapons the pistol is enormous and given the DW listed ewight, I don't see anyone without augmetics firing it without two hands anyhow (which means I'd also scrap the potential to try and use two hands to reduce penalties, as you HAVE to use two hands anyhow outside of PA).

For 'light' class bolt weapons I'd consider upping the req to 4, and use the strength advancement tables as a rough guideline as to when in a career that should happen.

I'd also up their overall cost and add some kind of circumstance modifier to social rolls depending on pattern. Without a list of deeds if an astartes catches you with an astartes boltgun, he may take issue with it. That Inquisitor might bet a bonus to intimidate because of the 'rare' boltgun across his chest. I'd also look into creating the two class of rounds, the 'light' rounds costing the standard thrones per bolt, but add 50-100% of the cost for 'heavy' bolt rounds.

And finally you'll want to look at how to give the other DH classes something equally tasty as those that can buff their strength up to use boltguns, but then again the fact that one character doesn't have to spend massive xp on upping their strength, and instead their skills and other powers might be the balancer there already.

Data007 said:

A Sororitas boltgun is bigger than an Astartes boltpistol. An Imperial Guard heavy bolter is bigger than an Astartes boltgun.