Cannot...resist....reply.....

Lynata said:

As for your reference visuals for calibre, it can be a combination of length or girth, as can be seen in a link like this: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=140g3o3&s=5 . The images you provide show different caliber ammunition, which can't apply to this argument as none of the material indicates caliber changes. The extra 2kg of the bolt pistol or the extra 11 kg of the bolt gun can't possible be all armor to resist "battle stress."

Lynata said:

Isn't that kind of what you're doing? Obsessing over why they are 'allowed' to do more damage than the sisters and DH characters, and that at high levels they (and tougher DH characters) become immune to low end weapons?

Lynata said:

It also says "yet must forego the more advanced lifesupport systems and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines" on page 9, which is in direct conflict with that sentence. It also says "Even the Space Marines may be called upon to aid an Inquisitor should the threat be greater than he and any locally requisitioned forces are able to counter." which implies that the sisters may not be enough. My comment is a stretch, I know, I'm just pointng out the inconsistencies that GW has within the pages of a single book.

And the SM codexes also say "Armed with a fearsome bolter, protected by a suit of power armour and the product of intense training and genetic manipulation, he is far beyond a mortal man, transformed into a lethal superhuman killing machine" which implies he is no longer 'mortal.' It also says "A Space Marine is no mere man, he is a superhuman being..." which tends to imply that they're no longer 'mortal.'

Lynata said:

You're right, DH and DW aren't totally mixable, and DH and RT aren't either. However, put two characters of the same or similar xp in the party (high RT or Ascension) and have a competent GM that allows each character their own screen time for their character's specialty and you will probably have a good time without adjusting the gear or stats significantly.

Siranui said:

It's too bad Gibson wen't crazy, I actually liked his older movies...

Lynata said:

In the Horus Heresy books the Astartes are unsure if they can die of old age since none ever have and the Astartes refer to humans as mortals and view them as generally unworthy of recognition since they die of old age and in battle so quickly.

Generally speaking Astartes are pretty far removed from the trivialities of being human.

>>>>Isn't that kind of what you're doing? Obsessing over why they are 'allowed' to do more damage than the sisters and DH characters<<<<

Yes. If a few points of damage don't matter why are you so bothered?

Let the foolish Marine fanboys have their base fun with their bulging muscles and oversized weaponry - you will be secure in the knowledge that you follow more noble goals!

Charmander said:

Not quite. Any caliber .50 bullet will always be 0,5 inches in diameter, regardless of its length. The same would apply to 0.75 and 1.00 bolter rounds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliber

Charmander said:

One image shows a cal .50 HMG round, the other images shows three bullets of which one is a cal .50 pistol round. I've seen such images used at least twice in support of the weird idea that Space Marine ammunition might somehow be 10 inches long or so.

Charmander said:

What else? I hope you're not implying that a 30 round magazine has a weight of ~10 kilograms. That wouldn't even add up to the bolt pistol whose magazine would have 33% the amount of rounds but only 10% the weight.

When you plan on using your boltgun like a hammer you better make it weigh a bit more. It could also be additional internal subsystems, but armour sounds more likely, though I don't know how much it would weigh or even what kind of material is actually used.

It's also common sense, though. A weapon by itself doesn't do any damage at all, the bullet does. Marines could shoulder car-sized bolters that have a weight of 2 tons - if they still spout out the same rounds then they'd still dish out just as much pain as well, and not more. Especially given that we're talking about rocket-propelled ammunition which makes the gun look even less important - otherwise we might at least get technical about barrel length and stuff (though there's not much difference there either, and we'd also have the fact that small bolt pistols do as much damage as larger boltguns).

Charmander said:

No, I'm all about preserving the status quo we know from the countless years of fluff prior to this RPG. Otherwise we might have the same talk again next year when somebody gets the idea that Sororitas should only wear carapace because, hey, power armour is only for Space Marines!

The role of the Sisters of Battle has gradually been played down - back in 1st Edition they were even policing the Marines too and not just the Ecclesiarchy (I bet many people don't know that) - so I'm generally against anything which sets them back even further. I like them how they are now. If you want the Marines to be even more awesome than they were meant to be, that's your right, but don't fault me for complaining about the repercussions this has for other factions or the setting in general.

Charmander said:

Their armour still provides the same protection, though, if you'd read the rest of the sentence.

Charmander said:

The Sisters are still normal humans. I have never doubted the Astartes to be genetically and tactically superior.

I could also point out that, given that there are far fewer Battle Sisters than there are Marines, they might simply be excluded given the small chance of them being "local" there. Or rather: Whatever Sisters of Battle might be local are likely far fewer in number than the nearest Space Marine Chapter. But that doesn't change anything about what I said before, of course.

Charmander said:

Given that "mortal" simply means someone can die, are you implying Marines are invincible and can never be killed?

Charmander said:

Well, their own 5th edition Codex says different. I can look up the quote if you want.

Charmander said:

I don't believe so. I'd feel quite handicapped if my gun wouldn't be able to damage an opponent because he might be scaled for weapons that, unlike my supposedly equal one, have autofire, an additional die of damage (for the most basic model) and a greater chance to trigger RF.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Ahh, so this is where this weird "mortal" reference comes from! Well, thanks for clearing that up. And yes, even though their casualty rate has likely risen a lot since "back then" I guess that still none of them would have died of old age. Amidst the Astartes, it'd likely be regarded as a great shame to just wither instead of going out with a big bang in glorious combat. It might even come with a shock when it never happened before.

Lynata said:

Disagreement:

The Sergeant in PTU has armor that ranges between 10 and 12, not 8 and 10. So we have a downgrade in the protective qualities of Astartes PA.

And it is a logical fallacy that the Felling Quality indicates a problem with the UT trait. It is a nod to how a weapon is deadly despite someone's stature. Note the sniper rifles in DW get it and that's all I saw that had it, surely they aren't blowing great holes in people.

Did you stop to think that maybe the enemies are still scaled to DH? A termagant or a Fire Warrior are in line with what you see in DH, Aren't they?

Lynata said:

Caliber refers to the bullet diameter, not the casing diameter. The casing doesn't come out the barrel, only the bullet does. In the case of magnum rounds, the powder charge in the casing is much higher than in a standard round of the same caliber, and the casing is larger. Some bullets are also the same caliber/diameter and are longer, which means the bullet itself could be longer, and the casing around it could be longer.

I think folks that show the difference between a .50 pistol and a .50 HMG round are trying to get across the same point that I have, that a bullets diameter, or caliber, doesn't mean that's how long the bullet is, how much mass it has, or how much of an explosive charge is behind it.

Lynata said:

No, according to their rules a standard mag for a DH boltgun is .7kg and the DW boltgun is 1.8kg

What I'm saying is the weight difference says the guns are larger- the sidebar in DW, however you feel about the sense it makes, says the guns are larger, heavier, and have more kick. This ties in with the magnum theory above. We can't go quoting codexes for this portion of the argument, as the whole basis of this portion is FFG's splitting of tiers of weapons, and stating that Marine bolters are bigger, heavier, have more kick, and do more damage.

Lynata said:

I was always a fan of 'unobtainium'

Lynata said:

Longer barrels work on accuracy and range, typically, not on overall destrictive capability of the round being fired. The fluff I've read indicates a conventional charge is used to propel the bolt out of the gun, presumably to prevent blowback. If you don't eject the bolt at close to the same speed it's going to go at the end of the day, you'll get some wierd physics happening (I know, we're in 40k, I know) with the trajectory of the bolt.

Lynata said:

Unfortunately, we might (see squats), though I think the RPG found them a reasonable spot, and I hope they don't get kicked out from it, and the authors like their Inquisitors and the like wearing PA so I doubt they'll make a rule quite that gender biased

Lynata said:

I'm not trying to make Marines more awesome, I like them the way they are too. I get your POV, but you're not going to chance GW's or FFG's mind on this, especially here, I'd recomend coming up with some slick HRs to deal with the issue. The fluff pretty much states that Marines can kill many times their number, and can somehow be the defenders of the galaxy with numbers that amount to one marine per world.

Lynata said:

You're missing the point- what I was trying to convey is that is that in one sentence the book says 'they get the armor equally badass to the marines' and in another they go 'well, not quite, they don't get to be stronger' which makes either statement suspect.

Lynata said:

It doesn't say immortal, it just says not mortal. All cats are animals, but not all animals are cats? I'm just saying that calling the rest of the Imperial army mortals and not applying the term to the Astartes seems to fit.

Lynata said:

Speaking of looking up quotes, page 5 paragraph 2, Space Marine Codex, 5th Edition: "He is no longer mortal in the truest sense, for a part of his heritage is now the Immortal Emperor."

The other quote is from GW's site, specifcally the DA Codex: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1060244&rootCatGameStyle

Lynata said:

So what happened to things other than guns and armor being important? You get other powers at that level, and access to Ascension level gear, paragon talents and mastered skills. A good GM the Marines aren't going to make the non-marine feel useless. Now I will admit a crap GM will make your life pretty miserable, but they'd be doing that regardless, yes?

Or you could work with your GM on any number of the minor house rules presented to make sure your character felt equal, without having to change underlying systems or the like.

Fenrisnorth said:

+1, I've always viewed Felling weapons as simply super deadly, not unlike the vindicare special ammo in Ascension that allows them to ignore UT. It's not that the UT system is broken in and of itself, but that it requires special ninja bullets to get around someone that uber.

Now people may feel UT is broken for other reasons, and I can't disagree that an incremental system would've felt a little better than a multiplicative system, but the system works as is and I don't think felling weapons showed up because the designers said "uh oh."

Marines in my games feel plenty threatened without felling weapons be used on them.

Fenrisnorth said:

And Final Sanction had the player character armour AP 8 on all locations. So we have an upgrade.

Fenrisnorth said:

Actually, a lot of people have pointed out that enemy stats differ from Creatures Anathema and other books on more than one occasion.

Charmander said:

On the mass and charge I agree, otherwise we would not have different ammo types. The idea that Marine bolts are longer, however, is ridiculous, given that we see obvious similarities in ejection port size and hence, by extension and by looking at the official pictures, can get a pretty good grasp on how the projectile housed in the shell would look like.

Charmander said:

True. I at least wanted to point out that this used to be different in the, like, 20 years that came before this RPG.

Charmander said:

Half-true, yeah. From what I've read before engaging in this entire argument a few days ago, longer barrels make for more velocity, which in turn naturally affects a projectile's power upon impact (more speed = greater kinetic force). All of that is of no real consequence here, though, given that we're talking about "miniature missiles".

Charmander said:

Hm, I thought this was to increase the projectile's efficiency in close combat - looking at how gyrojets were done in real life it seems they seriously lacked penetration on their first 5-10 meters or so until the rocket motor had accelerated it sufficiently. For a Space Marine those 5-10 meters are pretty important.

Charmander said:

Unfortunately, we might (see squats), though I think the RPG found them a reasonable spot, and I hope they don't get kicked out from it, and the authors like their Inquisitors and the like wearing PA so I doubt they'll make a rule quite that gender biased

Authors also like important people to carry powerful bolters. But you're right, they might simply downgrade things further, just as they also did with the armour that is 7/8 in comparison to 8/10 despite supposedly offering the same protection, or the Godwyn-De'az not even having autofire. You know, there is a small masochistic part of me that thinks it would be better to just eliminate something unwanted entirely rather than nerfing it into a caricature of its former self. This might at least still allow for a glorious departure in a final orgy of self-sacrifice and martyrdom.

As for Squats, I think I heard some rumors that they'll be reintroduced as Demiurg.

Charmander said:

I suppose you're right there. In that case see all of this as an obituary to former status and an effort to explain how things used to be.

Charmander said:

Following your interpretation, should it not still have some merit for the areas where it does not get "contradicted", though? It should also be noted that their armour does not incorporate these missing things because of the simple fact that they lack the Black Carapace - this is a biological limitation, not an issue of equipment.

Charmander said:

So he has an immortal soul but a mortal body? That is a pretty philosophical image, but it bears no relevance for a technical analysis.

Political pull for a combat-centric character may make for some nice roleplaying but doesn't really affect combat. Furthermore, it may press the character into a role she was never intended for - can't you just play a Sister of Battle ? And to what Ascension level gear are you referring in particular? Even a mastercrafted Godwyn-De'az will still be "only" a Godwyn-De'az, still suffering from being worse than what Arbites Enforcers get tossed in the local precinct. And if you mean that cloak it is (a) pretty Mary-Sue to wear something normally reserved for Canonesses and (b) still doesn't affect the character's damage output.

It is quite ironic that the Ascension Palatine is able to rival a Space Marine in survivability but worlds apart in terms of bolter damage. Shouldn't it be, like, exactly the other way around ?

I dunno, My buddy's SoB army have a Cannonness running around popping her 2+ Armor save to invulnerable every turn with Faith points.

And the codex says they are no longer mortal, and if the codex says so, it = truth.

Okay, forum is eating my quotes, apologies in advance if this is impossoble to read

Lynata said:

Yes, so now what, that we've seen both? One of the reasons the armor in FS was 8, I think, was because they also removed called shots, to hit tables, and criticals.

Lynata said:

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Lynata said:

Well my reading of that is that he has the Emperor's DNA in him, which is more than making his soul something special. And it kind of does have a technical analysis bit- the Emperor, if you believe the version of the fluff, was born from a bunch of shamans that lost the ability to reincarnate forming voltron, then the Emperor wandered earth for 10s of thousands of years never dying. So if that soul is injected into the Marine, what does that do in terms of immortality? I've no clue.

Lynata said:

To me? No, mainly because if I wanted to play a non-marine of any kind with a bunch of marines, my biggest concern would be survivability. From a gameplay perspective, being the guy that explodes the fastest isn't that much fun to me. I'd rather survive longer, deal out a little less damage, and pray that my GM gives me a chance to play out the rest of my character. And honestly, a warrior at that level should be more than just a shooter, they should be a commander or someone that at the very least inspires those below them, which is how influence talents and the like factor in. A competent warrior(es?) no doubt, but time and experience have gotten them a fanclub.

Again, IMO, humble or no, the direction FFG took the Sisters I like. It makes them stand out more from the other classes they have set up, it's not a guardsman, it's not a cleric, it's not a marine. To be a quishy version of a marine to me just says "Hey, we know people want girls in 40k that wear PA, but we know girls are just kind of weaker, so let's make a faction that can use their guns but they're way easier to kill!" The basis of their powers in faith gives them a unique place and breaks them out of this second place spot behind Astartes.

Fenrisnorth said:

Well, read the Codex entry about the Legion of the Damned, then.

Charmander said:

I see where you're coming from with that, but I'd just see that survivability as a challenge. I mean, when I have the option to (a) stand in a line with the Marines and take just as much damage but being unable to contribute to the team's effort in a remotely similar way or (b) having to be clever and use all my resources to stay alive but also being able to "do my part", then personally I'd rather pick b. It's deadlier, but also the more heroic thing to do. It would require some testing, of course, and it's entirely possible that I'm wrong and don't know what I'd be getting into, but judging purely from the image it sounds more fun that way, and notably closer to the fluff.

Perhaps it is but another case of personal preferences, though. Apart from the Cloak and Mantle being things that should not really belong into the hands of a player character, as much as I'll admit that the image has a certain attraction.

Charmander said:

Well, aside from Non-Marines not having as many Fate Points, I'd never want to become a walking "Miracle Machine" - constant Acts of Faith would just make them un-special. An AoF should be a moment of awesomeness, similar to when a Marine triggers a Demeanour.

In the TT, the Acts of Faith were meant to balance the Sisters' lack of toughness in comparison to the genetically enhanced Astartes - and it worked nicely as they were otherwise on par with armour and damage. They'll always be an MEQ unless you also take away their power armour. And where should they be if not on the 2nd place? The 1st is undoubtedly reserved for the Marines, you'll never hear even me say something different, despite some people having tried to put this into my mouth.

Lynata said:

If we want to get really picky, the casing of a self-propelled munition doesn't have to bear any relation to its size.

Longer barrels will help impart a greater velocity... but that means zilch when firing self-propelled munitions with HEAP warheads. you can throw HEAP and someone and it will have the same effect as travelling at supersonic speeds.

Gyrojets would lack penetration because they've all been kinetic-kill weapons. Bolter shells don't need that velocity.

Re: reference to Sisters in 1st Ed... I'd be interested to read that. I don't even remember SoBs existing back then.

Siranui said:

That's true, but assumptions about a significant difference seem pretty far-fetched to me, especially as those too would be completely unfounded by any source material. A better argument would be that two bolt rounds of the exact same size and shape still don't need to contain the same amount or quality of explosives, but that would be just as much of a player theory as all the other stuff. In any case, I just wanted to point out some logical fallacies about "gun size equals damage" and what the old fluff had to say.

Siranui said:

Bolt rounds still need a lot of kinetic force (and thus velocity) because they should be able to punch through armour before ideally detonating inside the target (as that'd presumably hurt more than detonating on armour surface), hence the delayed contact fuse. That's the way I remember them being described all the time, anyways.

"Re: reference to Sisters in 1st Ed... I'd be interested to read that. I don't even remember SoBs existing back then."

Sure thing - I'll upload a scan once I'm back home! It's not much, just about half a dozen sentences or so, but pretty interesting to read.

(**** forum bugs)

Lynata said:

Personal prefernece for certain, but without a GM that pulls punches cover and hiding will only do you so much good, especially in an encoutner that swarms you with hand to hand attacks. Closer to the fluff, maybe, but when participating in a group and trying to get into the story and campaign, constantly getting killed is not that enthralling to me,

Lynata said:

Why wouldn't they belong in the hands of a player character that is reached the upper levels of rank in the sector? At that level you're kind of at the top of the food chain. But again, personal preference.

Lynata said:

Fair enough, and again I haven't read them so I don't know how 'special' they really turn out to be, but IMHO PCs are supposed to be the 'special ones' and so a PC SoB triggering acts of faith a couple of times a night sounds well withn the realm of reason, just like I'd expect Marine players to try to look for ways to trigger their demeanor regularly.

Lynata said:

It's the apparent attempt to be 'as good but not quite as good' as the SM I see as tired. Make them cool on their own rather than trying to compare them to and keep up with the SMs. Maybe I just don't wouldn't want to play the little sister to the marines, I'd want something else that makes me actually stand out, that's all. If I played an inquisitor it would be my knowledge, an assassin my stealth, an ecclesiarch my faith.

Fenrisnorth said:

Dreadnoughts can also obtain Thunder Charge from their Advances. It's an Elite Advance for everyone else so far, but it could be added to a custom-built Chapter.

Charmander said:

For one, the Cloak of St. Aspira is unique (weirdly this holy relic's effect seems inferior to that of the reproducable Mantle of Ophelia which is distributed in slightly greater numbers, if usually only to Canonesses - I'm not quite sure what the reasons behind this "switch" could have been). Would you consider giving one of your Deathwatch Marines the Gauntlets of Ultramar?

I'll also freely admit that I have trouble adjusting to the thought of that quick of a rise through the ranks, though. Palatines are unit commanders and the right hand of a Canoness; the player character would seem to stand shortly before gaining leadership of an entire Order! Now, this is something that already seemed strange to me for the original careers of the Core Rulebook, but should the game not focus on portraying characters the likes of the stars in the novels and such? Usually we do not follow Chapter Masters, Guard Generals and Canonesses around because they have many subordinates below them to do the actual work - protagonists are usually experienced "rank and file", such as Brother-Sergeants, Commissars or Celestians. Most Ascension careers work fine as it makes perfect sense for them to be loners (or rather members of a small cell), but some look a bit out of place. Just my perception, though.

Charmander said:

I could understand this better for a Sister of the Non-Militant Orders, but for a Battle Sister it should seem natural that martial prowess has a certain importance. Faith is something that should present itself largely by roleplaying the appropriate behavior and restrictions, regardless of the career. YMMV.

Congrats to your new avatar, though.

Just a little thing but the SM armour in PTU is Artificer armour, not standard issue. I know it was not mentioned in the book but the author did confirm it on these very forums.

DW

Now I've almost forgot about the scan I promised to Siranui ...

Here you go!

Those were the times...

Traveller61 said:

Lynata said:

You are most welcome; and you are right: those were the times SMs the size of normal men, just one size of bolter and the Emperor still ruling the empire ..... but everything changes

DW

PS. But looking on the bright side see how many pages and pages and pages of forum "discussions" that these changes have inspired

I remember the picture from RT now. although I don't recall then seeing any other mention of the SoB for many years.

Yeah, until 2nd Edition they were just part of the background like the Custodes.

Bilateralrope said:

The problem is, there is no real difference other than cosmetic and accessory between Astartes Bolters and non-Astartes Bolters. From the fluff, a bolter is a bolter is a bolter. Normal humans can use the same Bolter as a SM, they just wont be as good with it due to obvious factors. SoB alleviate this somewhat in that they use Powered Armor.

IMHO, bolters are supposed to be uber nasty weapons. You hit a guy with it, hes most likely going to die, horribly. It is basically the same as getting hit with a high power 40mm grenade that not only penetrates, but explodes once its in you. With this in mind, I would make bump DH bolters to DW stats. No other considerations necessary.

BrotherWill said:

The weight and size aren't different? Remember FFG's DW Fluff is just as valid as the other fluff out there. If a novel was written that discussed this in the same depth the RPG does would it change your mind?

To me, taking your suggestion of upping DH damage is fine, but you run the risk of imbalancing your DH campaign by introducing a weapon much better than most of what Acolytes can get their hands on. But if you're just playing DW, this doesn't hurt much of anything.

Charmander said:

Well, that still stands to question, keeping in mind what George Mann said about canon and "interpretations of canon".

I expect to see the answer to this question next year at the latest. But just like BrotherWill I too am used to the 20 year old maxim of "a bolter being a bolter being a bolter".

Aside from that it's also a simple matter of logic, if we keep in mind that a non-Astartes heavy bolter is both larger as well as heavier than an Astartes boltgun and that power-armoured Acolytes can easily reach a level of Strength similar to unpowered Marine Scouts, who happen to be armed with Marine bolters too. Hum.

So far, the only thing in this RPG keeping normal Acolytes or RT characters from using Astartes-level bolters is "because BL/FFG said so". And that doesn't feel right, though I know I'm crying over spilt milk here.