Cifer said:

They cracked the armor to leave open a hole to the fleshy bits inside, they didn't blow it up. It was already damaged and blind from the astartes that came before, as well. (and I think it was still in his 1st/2nd book, when he readily says he just didn't get space marines)

Cifer said:

I agree here, and I don't think it's a big deal unless you're running a crossover, in which case I think the additional cool powerz that the Sororitas get should be able to make up the difference (and a handful of forumites have said as much).

What is the source, other than the DW Rulebook, that says that the TT game is wrong and SoB boltguns are drastically less powerful than Astartes versions? -And in any event SoB bolt guns are larger than Astartes bolt pistols ...

I just noticed that the Rogue Trader Rulebook gives all bolt weapons the tearing ability, which helps, but I still feel that non-Astartes bolters are underpowered. I'm considering implementing a house rule in my campaign (which is primarily Dark Heresy , but with occasional forays into Deathwatch ) that non-Astartes boltpistols/guns are 2d10 damage, and non-Astartes heavy bolters are 2D10+6 (I guess I'll also have to increase their cost as well), and then reduce the damage of Astartes bolters/pistols to 2d10+3. That seems like a reasonable variation in power level to me, allowing for Astartes weapons to be larger calibre versions of standard bolters, while still falling within the Strength 4 realm from the tabletop game...

(And the hatemail begins in 3...2...1...)

Adeptus-B said:

The DH and IHB, both written by Black Industries, who were owned by GW. They defined the damage range for bolt weapons and the first SoB class. They also defined that a special weapon existed that humans could fire that shot "Astartes" grade bolt rounds, the Angelus Bolt Carbine (IHB p.109). In the description of Bolt weaponry in the DH core book (p.133) it specifically states "It would be a mistake to confuse these "civilian" issue weapons with those of the Adeptus Astartes." The RT core bolt description paraphrases this.

So the ultimate answer is Games Workshop is.

ItsUncertainWho said:

It would also, IMO, be a mistake to believe that the Adepta Sororitas use 'civilian' issue weapons.

HappyDaze said:

My interpretation of "civilian" was always "non-astartes".

IMO, the term "Civilian" is a loaded one, inappropriately used. A better term for the distinction between Astartes weaponry and that of everyone else would have been "Mortal"

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I don't think the Astartes would normally be that... unhumble. I suggest the term Imperial . While the term is not precise (Astartes weaponry is imperial after all), I can see it being in wide-spread use as denoting the common imperial weapons found both in military (Guards) hands as well as the many civilian weapons you can find, for example, in the hands for former-hive-ganger-turned-Scum-acolyte hands.

Alex

ak-73 said:

A lot of the novels, especially the HH series, have the marines referring to humans as "Mortals". I have to agree with N0-1_H3r3 on that point.

I have never considered an Astartes to be humble. If you look at the ideals of chivalry, taking space marines as knightly orders, being humble isn't one of them. Stating your superiority in station, combat prowess, etc is not diminishing to your personal honor, as long as it's all true.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Black Industries also produced Purge The Unclean , which defined Astatres bolt weapons as doing 2d10+2...

Adeptus-B said:

2d10, actually; Brother-Sergeant Agamorr (the character armed with that Bolt Pistol) had the Mighty Shot talent, which has been included in the weapon's profile (as is standard practice).

Adeptus-B said:

For what is worth, all bolt weapons were given the Tearing quality with the Dark Heresy errata. So they would deal 2D10 (choose highest) +5. Still weaker than Astartes Weaponry, but I´m fine with that.

I don't see the big problem. The Astartes weapons are massive - but more importantly, they are of a quality that way outshines that of all but the most master-crafted weapons made for "mortals". As such you have an edge both regarding the quality of the weapon and the caliber of the ammunition. This is nicely illustrated in the Angelus Pattern Bolter, which is an absolutely ass-kicking instrument of death (unless people dodge the accurate shot) that only holds three rounds of ammo - and ammo that is the same as that used by the Astartes.

Also, now that all bolters have the "Tearing" quality (errata), even the "puny" bolters used by the Imperial Guard, Sister of Battle, Adeptus Arbitratus etc. have the potential of dealing serious damage.

But of course they shouldn't be as tough as a weapon designed to be wielded by people with Unnatural Strength and Toughness, who have a special kind of Power Armour fitted to their Black Carapace, meaning that the armour is a much more integrated part of the Space Marine, than of the Sister of Battle.

IRL a .50 Barrett and a .22 Long Rifle are both "Basic SP" weapons, but I assure you that a normal person can't fire the .50 from the hip while running around – or hold it with one hand and fire it around a corner. A Space Marine, however, can. And the difference from a .50 to a .22 is probably comparable to the difference of a “normal” Bolt-weapon and an “Astartes” Bolt-weapon. (If the Astartes weapon isn’t more like a 20mm…)

But this is a system, where you, the GM, have the option to use the rules as you like – including change those that you don’t like. If you feel that Sisters of Battle should have better guns, then what’s stopping you? Go for it.

However, I disagree with the wish for the rules to follow those of 40K Battles. The rules for that system are designed to function as a Table Top Wargame, and as such are supposed to be rather simple. If you should believe that system, then all marine chapters would go extinct in no time, as they easily loose 50%+ of their numbers in any given skirmish. That most of them probably only are wounded and can get back to work after a short break is not implied in the rules for that system, even though that should probably be the case. In many ways the 40K rules are flawed and overly-simple. But that’s a quality in that kinda system. In a RPG system however, other issues become more important.

In short: Do as you like, but I think Astartes Bolt Weapons should be more or less as powerful as they are, and the Sisters of Battles Bolters should remain powerful yet pale copies of that of the Astartes.

Theodocian said:

I disagree, I think the .50 Barette is a Heavy weapon. It comes with it's own bipod for Russ' sake! also, I think you are overestimating the difference between an Astartes Bolter, and a Guardsman's bolter. Say, the difference is between .38 and.44 instead. The Astartes bolter is bigger and better, IMO, than the Guardsman one, but not THAT much, it doesn't fire bullets more than twice the diameter.

And Sisters wear Powered Armor, I think slightly downgraded is the key, say 2d10 instead of 2d10+5. Their armor can absorb a lot of kick, and they are pretty awesome. remember, we do usually only see the Orders Militant, the women who would become buff biker b***hes, not the cute little nurses of the Orders Hospitallars.

Theodocian said:

Like you say, do as you like , but I maintain that a massive difference in power level between Astartes bolters and Sororitas bolters exists no where in the quarter-century of 40k background material, except the DW rules, which, in my opinion, means that the DW rules are in error...

Adeptus-B said:

So to take a slightly different slant on the same old argument for a change; what would you (and the rest of the people that don't like it) do to help represent the fluffy power of the Marines, their ability to gun down swathes of enemies better than the rest of the Empire's troops if not via increased weapon damage? If you give them the same weapon as the rest of the folks, they're no better at shooting the crap out of the Emperor's enemies than an Acolyte with enough thrones for a boltgun and ammo. If the marines are supposed to be better and more powerful, how do you represent that?

Adeptus-B said:

And in the fluff, indirectly, of course. What with the SoBs being 'mere mortals' and the Marines being vastly more powerful individuals, there should obviously be a difference in what weapons they tote.

Siranui said:

I still think that's a misconception. Tehoretically, a sister of battle is not above being mortal, but is trained on an extensive level. If A standard issue astartes bolter had a smaller trigger, a modified stock, that it could be human capable.

Looking it up in the DH rulebook, it says they are .75 caliber rounds, which is the same round that is fired by an Astartes Bolter. It does also say that they are "temperamental" so perhaps also some weight has been dropped that would make them more stable for a Space Marine. DH bolters also can't go full auto, but I think any picture you find of sisters firing doesn't seem like they're doing semi auto.

Frostfire said:

Personally I figure this this is something akin to a standard charge and a magnum charge in modern firearms (I think there are many others that agree). There can be a significant difference in stopping power between the two. And because you're cramming more powder in there, the bullet is going to be bigger, and neccessiate a weapon capable of firing the larger round.

I think one of the key distinctions is that the marines are depicted as blasting the bejesus out of the enemies in short order and in small numbers, moreso than the sisters. Even if the fluff doesn't go and give details on the models of boltguns and call the Marines editions out as better, somehow someway the marines can kill better with their guns. Given the RPG ruleset how else do you portray that capability? Damage seems to be the easiest one- there may be others but I don't personally see them right now.

Charmander said:

"Everyone else" use lasguns. Boltguns are the weapon of the Imperium's elite : Astartes, Sisters of Battle, Commisars/Veteran Officers, and of course, the Inquisition.

Yeah, I haven't heard anything to disuade me from thinking that standard boltguns should be bumped up to 2D10, heavy bolters to 2D10+6, and Astartes bolters/pistols slightly reduced to 2d10+3- all Tearing, of course.

Considering a Space Marine's greater starting BS and wealth of combat skills, they will still tower over boltgun-wielding "mere mortals", without having to contrive arguments to explain why the same Strength 4 weapon has two drastically different sets of stats...

Personally I think that it would be silly if a 500-1000kg genetically modified monster in a 180kg armour with recoil compensation fired the same round from his 18kg bolter that a 65kg unaugmented human in 35kg armour fired from her 6kg bolter. In my 40k world both use a .75 round but the astares version use a larger cartridge and a heavier projectile. Let's compare two real world 20mm (.787) rounds. The 20x82 HE has a muzzle energy of 29kJ and the 20x139 HE has a muzzle energy of 72,6kJ. They are both 20mm rounds but one of them have 2,5 times more muzzle energy.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/20mm3.jpg

Adeptus-B said:

In a fluffy world Ballistic Skill has more of an impact than, at least in my experience, it does on the table when rolling the dice. My +10 to starting BS means that I *might* get 1 DoS more than you in autofire and thus hit one more time, and it makes me more likely to clear a jam. That means if you take a SoB and a Marine and put them side by side the Marine might do 1 more mag damage to an enemy horde than the SoB.

The other traits a marine gets to start are largely defensive in nature, making them harder to kill rather than excellent at shooting the hordes of enemies in the face. The reason they excel at killing the enemies is due in part to the fact the rules upped their damage by an average of 5.5 (except for the heavy bolter, which I do feel is a bit over the top when they added 10 damage to every shot).

Now I agree the base stats in DH for a boltgun are a bit...low, and I wouldn't cry if they got a bit of a bump (and an increase in cost), but I still want my marines being capable of laying waste to enemy formations with an efficiency that you can't get with characters from the other lines. That's their job .

Adeptus-B said:

It's only the 'same' weapon if you consider tabletop to be your start-point. Many people don't. After all: Space Marines in TT are noticably inferior to those in the fiction.

If I might make a comment regarding caliber:

Caliber is a measure of the diameter of the bullet, in hundredths to thousandths of an inch. It, alone, is not enough to differentiate between rounds as two different rounds could have the same caliber and yet have dramatically different operating characteristics. Some examples:

• .357 Magnum versus .357 Sig
• .45 ACP versus .45 GAP
• .300 Winchester Magnum versus .300 Lapua Magnum
• .50 AE version .50 BMG

That last set of examples of the 50 caliber rounds illustrates just how dramatically different two same caliber rounds can be. The .50 AE round is a higher-powered pistol round, while the .50 BMG round is a huge rifle round used more often against vehicles than personnel. It would be a big mistake to think that the former is anything like the latter.

With regard to bolter rounds, then, while .75 Astartes and .75 Imperial Guard/Sororitas may have the same caliber, chances are good that .75 Astartes is significantly different in construction, perhaps utilizing a longer shell and/or shell casing or even a shell casing of different design. As for the entry in the Dark Heresy core rulebook (page 133 under "Bolt Weapons"), it's either ambiguous at best, or, if in fact correct, only describes the width of the round and not everything else.

-Kirov

r206 said:

I also don't know why people think saying it's not like the table top is a good argument. Yes on the TT they both have the same guns. And also on the table top space marines die in dorves. If the TT were reflected in Deathwatch then almost every game would result in a near total party kill. Demon Prince pops out? TPK. Hive Tyrant? TPK. Three squads of fire warriors? TPK. Somehow I don't think the players would be having much fun.

Defenstrator said:

This is true, however Tabletop is where most of these things came from, and where the fluff orginates. Yes, no matter how awesome a grey knight is portrayed to be, on the table top the normal one has one wound, which makes him a mook. I'm not saying that everything should be like it is on the table, but I think that the sisters have a near equal armory.

I could swear, really swear, that I read a fluff bit somewhere that said they have equivalent bolters to a space marine. Looking through the Witch hunters codex, the best I had was the following:

"The sisters of battle are exceptionally well equipped, with their armo u r and weapons the equal of any space marine chapter"

Also, on the display of one of the sisters, her bolter is named a "Godwyn-Deaz Pattern Bolter"

Also, table top wise, sisters mechanically are designed to shoot as well as a marine, yet don't have his strength, toughness, or weapon skill, and are deployed in larger groups. I think this already presents them as not being as good as astartes in one on one combat (discounting faith). I think their whole thing is that they may not be super human like a space marine, but they still try to be able to kick as much butt. They're defiantely over the average guardsman.

Alot of people have made alot of good points on both sides. So perhaps then it could be a compromise? Maybe the standard bolter shouldn't be changed. Perhaps it's just that in a sister's armory her bolter is superior to the standard. Not saying it has to be as superior as an astartes bolter, but perhaps it's a middle ground between the two.