We've had a thread on it before, I know. The basis of this thread is: how could the Apothecary class be modified in a minor way (see Space Wolves in the errata 1.0) to make them look less meh? I know a number of people have felt the specialty being under-represented (the least appealing) too.

Possible eligible talents to choose from (make available cheaply at Rank 1-3):

-Duty Unto Death (he's got the most important job to do)
-Fearless (ditto, he must be able to jump into the jaws of hell to recover the progenoids if necessary)
-Flesh Render (com'on... Apothecary+Chainsword)
-Iron Jaw(tough guys for a tough job)
-Jaded(ditto, only on a psychological basis - he's a battlefield doctor after all)
-Peer(Astartes) (he's the one who saves Marines butts)
-Stalwart Defence /standing over a fallen brother, defending him)
-Wisdom of the Ancients (men of wisdom, veterans of countless battles)

I suggest 2 or 3 should be given for cheap.

Alex

The class will always look unappealing to a proportion of players, due to lack of killyness. There's really not much that can be done about that until it's modified to be as killy as the 'front line' classes, which is just a bit dumb.

However, the class is appealing to a good number of players, who are more than happy to take on the role. Some players are happy with support roles, and are happy to take a back seat in combat in exchange for being more skill-orientated, knowing that they're the most essential party member, and being the one who is probably best looked after and protected by the rest of the group.

Basically if you're not of the right mind-set, this class has little appeal. And if you are, then you don't need any more bribing.

So to my mind, the class is fine. But if I were to make a change it would most certainly not to make the class more killy.

I'd probably give access to tech use at a lower cost than on the general advance table, making them 'back-up tech marine'. Otherwise 'duty unto death' is the only one on your list that I'd really be happy with, alongside perhaps wisdom of the ancients. Although wisdom seems a bit of a cludge to me.

How about talented (forbidden lore: xenos)?

Actually: If anything, I'd go for more Wargear, perhaps allowing to upgrade to a masterwork arthesium (15 points extra, is it?) and giving them a chainsword for 400-500xp.

I was thinking Last Man Standing at Rank 1 (to avoid being pinned) and Duty Unto Death at Rank 2 (sheer dedication). Though Flesh Render would make sense for a marine used to sharp tools...

I don't think it's a matter of making them killy, so to speak, but I think other things could make them better.

In our campaign when someone rolls an apothecary, I give them the genetic monitoring for free, along with one of the other abilities. That's a very long term thing, and an apothecary, I think, should always be looking for corruption over a long period of time. This also enables them to either pick the poision one or the healing one. Both good.

Second, and something I'm working on, is making healing on the fly easier As it is now, healing takes not only the action of the healer, but also the healie. I think this is good fluff mechanics, but after playing one, I found quickly that nobody, no matter how injured they are, was willing to wait to take their turn during combat to heal as long as they were doing damage. This put me in a sore thumb possition, as everyone was injured, and there as nothing i could do. An easier way to heal soeone, even if it's temporary hit points, or using a fate point in combat (not burning it) to heal without using the other person's turn would be effective. They're sitting against a wall, still shooting, while I patch up the wound under their arm.

I think the last improvement has to fall to the GM. They have to make sure that if they have an Apothecary in the group that they give them apothecary related challenges so they don't feel like so left out. Healing this NPC, taking out the progenies of a dead Space marine NPC, do this poision thing, analyze this xeno. Otherwise it could give them fifth wheel syndrome.

Plus also as a secondary thought, I don't think making them killy is necessarily a good option. An Apothecary's primnary role above other things is to heal. If you make them too killy, then they might say "I'm too busy killing things to heal" which is against their nature.

You might laugh at this, but I've seen it happen in SWRPG. Jedis and Force Adpets are the only ones with healing abilities, and when they get too killy and busy in combat, they can easily and quickly concentrate on killing things than putting the group first.

On tabletop, an Apothecary (in normal space marine chapters) gives you feel no pain in a command squad. You can fit them with other weapons, but your champion or others are really the close combat beasts. Feel no pain is what gives Apothecaries their ultimate use, and that's what they're really good at.

I really don't think that if players are unwilling to give up a turn to be healed that it's the APO's problem, nor one to be solved with new rules. It's purely down to players being dumb and doesn't deserve 'helping'. If they don't want to give their turn up they can spend a FP or suck down the damage. Plus: There is no logical way that someone can get patched up in combat while still killing things. To be fair, the healing rules (taking 1 turn) are already MASSIVELY generous.

Genetic monitoring is good, though.

Frostfire said:

Really, that's their problem, not yours, as Psyx mentions.

If the fighting gets desperate, inform them of their choices - either they give up a Full Action now so you can heal them, or you spend a Full Action later collecting their geneseed... because that's what it comes down to in the end: first aid or last rites.

I'd not be inclined to make it easier to heal in combat - a skilled Apothecary already heals swiftly and efficiently, so long as his Brothers are willing to let him. What I'd do instead is allow for a character being healed to still act, but with limitations and penalties applied, for desperate situations - a character receiving First Aid may optionally retain his normal actions with the following restrictions; he may not take any action with the Movement or Concentration subtypes, and suffers a -40 penalty on all tests during his action, due to the difficulties of fighting while being tended to. In addition, the Apothecary suffers a -40 penalty on the Medicae Test, as it is much harder to treat a patient who is concentrating on fighting the enemy.

The big penalty comes with an attendant risk - failure on the test still means the wounds are Treated, and thus can't be restored with First Aid, and a big failure may result in more damage... but that's the price paid for not sitting still and paying attention when the Apothecary is providing medical attention.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

i like that line. Think I'm going to use it.

Frostfire said:

i never realised as GM that the patient had to spend a full round action also for first aid... that does make things a bit more tense during combat!

I love my apothecary lots, I just don't admit it around the chaplain else I get strange looks and a stern lecturing.

I'm not sure it's really an issue... Healing in combat demands a full action from both the Apothecary and whoever he is healing. On top of needing both parties to be adjacant, so further action are going to be lost. That is a huge drain on the Kill-Team's offensive power.

In short, baring some rather extreme circumstances, I don't think an Apo will spend all that much time 'combat healing'. He's most likely to patch up his battle-brother AFTER the battle. Extremely urgent healing in battle can also be taken care off via fate Point after all.

This isn't a fantasy setting where the healer can throw up his hand and whisper some divine words to have his target bathed in healing golden light. If your Assault Marine is getting thorn apart by a pack of Genestealers, it's much smarter to assist him and kill the Genestealer quick rather than have 2 people 'immobile' in CC for 1 turn...

ak-73 said:

To be honest, i am shocked the Apothecary doesn't already get Peer(Astartes) and/or perhaps one or two of the others. Peer just seems like a no-brainer to me. The US Marines and the Navy almost hate one another, but every Marine loves to see a Corpsmen.