The errata makes Pilot (Personal) extremely easy to acquire and since Jump Pack don't require any Reknown requirement and only cost 15 Req... they are quite easy to get. Especially early in the game, where you can get plenty of renown and have no idea what to do with it (Buying every single flavor of ammo gets kinda boring).

I have a bit of a problem with that... for one, it doesn't really sit well with the fluff. Not everybody has a jump pack in the books or the TT.

But really... why not? Most Space Marines totally suck at stealth as it is, so it's not like telling them that moving around with a jump pack isn't stealthy is a problem.

There's also the fact that Jump Pack are all around awesome... you pretty much pass any climb/jump situation... you can move a lot faster than your normal movement rate... you can fly for 1 straight minutes; that's like 10 round of combat. Many enemies have no (or very little) in the way of range damage and having your entire kill team fly circle around them as they shoot them up isn't exactly the image I have in mind when I'm thinking of an epic fight between Space Marines and Genestealers (as an example).

Granted, there's places where you won't be able to fly... but the increased movement rate is pretty much always good.

I personally find it annoying that the skill and items are so cheap and good that they basically become no brainers.

Yes you are right, Luckily my players do not take the time to read the forums or have even asked about this issue. I had thought about how I might react if they do ask, and I think I would allow the apothecary and the tac marine access, but the devestator wields a HB or Heavy Flamer and do not see all that ammo fitting with the pack, and the chaplain and grey knight having it seem alittle odd to me. I think you would have to look at it per mission and per character, your watch captain can always say no, but I like to have some basis for that of corse.

Tarkand said:

i hope you realize that most of the stuff you're describing requires pilot personal checks with are likely to fail. when not in combat, i give my players +20 to +30 bonuses for routine jump pack uses but using them in combat requires harder tests with penalties for failing (like falling or missing your target). even just hovering while firing a ballistic weapon (like a bolt pistol) is enough for a check. it shouldn't be as easy-breezy as you're describing it.

Well, my players don't read forums, but they do have an Assault Marine and they have played Rogue Trader where a Void Master became the 'go to guy' for so many problem once he could fly... on top of the jump pack adding much more depth to his combat possibilities.

See, in the TT version of the game, jump troops usually cannot hold objective (some army have jump troops that can, yes, but stay with me here) so there's actually a tactical reason not to bring jump troop... but this isn't really the case in DW... having a jump pack is likely to be a lot more useful than not, and even if you end up in a mission where it didn't make a difference well - it's only 15 Req.

It doesn't take much time to realise just how tactically powerful of a tool flight, 'super speed' and 'controlled jumps' are. It's much better for Melee Characters (Librarian especially comes to mind) ... but even a Devastator can use it to make a jump on top of a building... by the time enemies get to the floor where he is, he can jump to another building (Assuming city fights, but you get the idea in different environment regardless). For ranged character, jump pack allow incredible ability to reposition oneself and avoid melee even better. I think it might actually be worse on them because of this.

I think you might be on to something tho Nimon - The Devastator probably can't carry his ammo backpack with a Jump Pack... this can make ammo an issue (I usually go with the rule of 3... but Heavy Bolter eat throught ammo so fast that 3 clip is really little) and may make the other player reconsider... after all, having 1 guy that significantly slower than the rest of the group can cause tactical issue.

Sanguinary Priest said:

They didn't actually do the 'fly around and shoot' thing, but I'm expecting it's a matter of time before they figure it out.

Mostly they've used it to jump over pits and to do charges with incredible distances... in one fight, some rebels had guns nest on the second floor of a building, so the Librarian and Assault Marine both charged through the wall (cheap masonery that gave cover 4, no match for a rocket powered adeptus astartes) to assault the gunners.

You're right thought... asking for pilot roles could solve a lot of my issues.

Do you ask for test simply to charge?

I'm assuming the charge thru the wall should have been a test.

I think that charging through a masonry wall to take down some rebels is easily within the range of possible for even low Rank members of the Deathwatch. I'd let the players have their fun, there are lots of tough things out there that can't be overcome with a jump pack. Tight interiors and the need to use vehicles could both take away from jump packs (from tabletop, jump pack troops can't use bikes, act as the crew to any larger vehicles, and they take up twice as much room as passengers).

Tarkand said:

Tarkand said:

jumping over standard pits and other obstacles not in combat and without any other hazards? i don't require tests on something like that.. if you add some environmental hazards like 50mph winds while jumping over a mountain gorge or blasts of gas from volcanic pits to the scenario, i would require it.

as for charging, i would require a test. my general rule is that they take 1 meter's worth of falling damage and land 1 meter away from their intended spot (using grenade scatter rules) per degree of failure. we've houseruled that bad things happen when people roll really high in general (like jamming a gun) for all tests so we count them as landing prone on a 95-99 and losing the rest of their action in addition to being prone on a 100 (really hard landing). in combat they have to activate the pack, guide it in, and land near an angry enemy who is probably firing at them.... i'd say that deserves a test if they're trying to use the extra speed a jump pack gives them (especially with the descent option for assault marines). if its a simple charge out in the open air with no environmental hazards (wind, jet wash, etc) and nothing in between them and the enemy (like other flying creatures), then i'd give them a bonus to their check. if they wanted to activate their pack for extra charge movement while in a sewer tunnel waist deep in sewage and with a relatively low ceiling (like the assault marine tried in my last game), i'd make them check at a penalty (-20% IIRC). as for what they can use while equiped with a jump pack, nothing that wound normally go on the marine backpack... no heavy weapon ammo packs (clips only), no nartheciums (although blood angels do still get that so i might allow it), no techmarine servo arms, etc. hope that helps. forcing tests and associating some tangible penalty to failure helps to stop jump pack abuse in combat. outside of combat, it's still pretty awesome for a movement method (as it should be).

Your suggestions on piloting checks for most combat actions are pretty harsh. You also suggest falling damage when the jump pack is specifically designed to allow safe falling. I'm not a fan of either of these complications as a standard feature of using jump packs, but to each their own.

I find that access to the pilot[personal] skill really solves a huge fluff issue I've been having.

The path taken by codex astartes chapters starts with scout, then devestator, then assult marine and then tactical marine.

Once a marine has mastered all three fighting styles, ie. longe range, close range and adapting both to the current situation, he then takes the role he is most suited for, and his training is complete. This means that any deathwatch non-assult marine has in his home chapter spent time in one of the two assult reserve companies training as an assult marine. I found it strange that he didn't then learn to use a jump pack at this point in his life!

I mean do all codex chapters have two companies of assult marines who don't use jump packs? I honestly don't think so.

IMHO all marines from codex chapters who follow the guidelines of training as laid out in Codex Astartes should have the Pilot[personal] skill to begin with.

Which I believe is represented by it's low XP cost.

And as with all other Drive and Pilot skills, skill checks should be made whenever used in difficult circumstances.

I mean charging an enemy through knee deep water at night might call for an agility test, so why shouldn't assulting a heretic through a wall while being shot at with heavy weapons in smoke filled battle?

some excessive use might be mitigated with occasional calls for Pilot rolls.

And offcourse a devestator can't have backpack ammo while carrying a heavy weapon.

I don't have the book on me right now but aren't all Deathwatch heavy weapons supplied with backammo all the time? Is it an option when taking a heavy bolter down from the shelf to say you just want three drum rolls of bolt shells?

Tarkand said:

Well, I usually would rather have a clip of Kraken or Metal Storm rounds for that req. Or a red-dot sight. If your players favour mobility, let them. It's their choice - they will lack in offensive firepower then, it's all a trade-off.

And besides, these DW marines are all very experienced fighters, not run-of-the-mill marines. I am very comfortable with any number of them picking jump packs and loads of ammo goodies and stuff. They are the Deathwatch after all.

Alex

Tarkand said:

Not everyone in TT is a member of an elite special forces unit, in just the same way that not every soldier today is trained for parachute jumps.

Deathwatch is special, and has special tools available and far more accessible than most Chapters. Most 'normal' tactical marines would chew their left arm off for even a fire selector... and those are only 3req!

15req might not be much, but there's a bunch of other awesome stuff you can buy for that. A mastercrafted chainsword, or a relevant sighting system: both of which give the user +10 on their 'offence' dice roll, which will be used in about 80% of combat rounds. That's far more useful.

Remember also that jump packs are large. In enclosed quarters it would not be unreasonable to impose a -5% or greater modifier for dodging and fighting while wearing one, and there are times where a jump pack just won't fit inside a building, or will cause the Marine to have to slowly and carefully go through a bulkhead sideways, rather than rushing through, guns blazing. In short: Remember the problems associated with them, as well as advantages.

Flargius said:

Amen and pass the ammunition.

I agree with the above, please remember that jump packs are not stealthy or small.

And 15 req points is a same as 1 primary objective. So if everyone in the team buys a jump pack do they have enough rec to get mission estential gear.

HappyDaze said:

it sounds more harsh than it is in practice. with every marine now having access to pilot personal right away (and at the dirt cheap price of 100xp), adding falling damage makes the assault marine special again in that they can take catfall right away. in practice, marines don't often take damage from falling with this rule. my assault marines (2 of them) have agility 50+ each and i do give them bonuses for uncomplicated checks (like charging an enemy in the open using a jump pack assist gets +20), so they can only get a max of 3 degrees of failure. using my house rule, that's a 3 meter fall assuming they rolled a 100 resulting in 1d10+3 damage; with an average marine toughness of 40 (so 8 subtracted from damage), they take max 5 damage on a roll of 100 for pilot and 10 for damage (so a 1/1000 chance of this happening).

Flargius said:

For me the fluff problem isn't the fact that can learn how to pilot it - baring space wolves, every Marine should already know how a jump pack long before he gets into the DW.

The problem is that the requisition is so low. Fluffwise - not everybody walks around with jump pack and the Deathwatch is no exception.

But really, there's very little reason not to always take one in the current system. Unless of course, once gets especially harsh with those pilot skills.

Flargius said:

Not be a ****, but no... it isn't much of a trade off and what you're making here is a poor tactical choice.

Mobility in this case adds up to more offensive potential, more defensive potential as well as tons of non combat option... versus what? 3 more pen? For the costs, those aren't even in the same league.

The main problem is that nothing else at 15 points is has close to being a game changer has the jump pack is.

Tarkand said:

3 Pen per hit. Which means up to 12 points.

I have no problem with this. I have no problem with all Heavy Bolter kill-teams - as long as the heavy bolter isn't overpowered. Not with all Storm Bolters, etc.

It's a strategical decision that the players have to make. Hope they'll never get into a situation where it comes back to bite them. The problem with spam of anything is that the lack of balance carries to risk of hitting a situation where you need what you didn't spend points on eventually.

Alex

You are imposing the squad mode ranges properly, right?

While they may be mobile, they still need to stay within squad range for alot of the awesome abilities to work. I imagine your devastator (if you have one) doesn't take a jump pack (and if he does, you better not let him have any more ammo for his heavy weapon that solely what is listed as the clip size for that weapon). If he lags behind, he can't perform unrelenting devastation, which hurts the squad as that means larger hordes running around. Someone else has to stay near him, at which point, why should they take a jump pack? Might as well get some weapon mod, or some other item.

As far as fluff goes, I think the game handles this balance reasonably well. Probably the most appropriate way to have done it would have been to have characters to treat pilot(personal) as a basic skill. It would mean that those who do not specialize at being an assault marine are a bit rusty than those that do (and it would be a terrible idea to actually use a jump pack without retraining as falling is a bad thing). Do remember that these are "specialties" and not the actual "how far the marine has trained" a devastator marine in DW could very well have served the standard period in the other types of units, only at the end going back to his calling, using the big guns. Same as how a DW veteran scout wouldn't be a bad idea either.

But yes, my solution to why everyone probably shouldn't take a jump pack is the squad mode distance argument. Jump packs encourage a bit much on the spread out aspects, which would force players to leave (and have to later reenter) squad mode.

Also, I would say plenty of gear is incompatible with jump packs, possibly even loadout size (force the character to not be able to carry as much because almost his entire backside is inhospitable to gear). Design missions that force the party to be prepared for certain aspects.

Tarkand said:

I still don't think that's a good solution. I think a better solution is to get a better encumbrance/load system for this game. Most of the equipment issues I see here would be handled easily if the operational load capability of the Space Marines were better defined (and not just by weight).

Jump packs are awesome. One thing to consider is that Astartes are already big guys. Adding a massive jump pack to them make for a very unwieldy Marine indoors or without maneuvering room.

I for one like that my Assault Marine can actually Fly for a short time with one. In fact doing strafing runs just out of reach of ground-pounding Hordes with a Flamer looks nicer and nicer the more I think about it.

Does your GM realize that not EVERYONE in the Horde is carrying a flamer? That would just be silly.....3000 flamer wielding Chaos Cultists LOL

muzzyman1981 said:

I believe he was referring to an AM with a flamer doing strafing runs on a horde.

As has been brought up, Jump Packs are great, except if you need to enter any normal structure. Any time anyone with a jump pack is inside a building, except for the most grand structures, they will have issues getting around. I would also try to take into account the exhaust flame and smoke that will be nicely contained if used inside a closed space.

Pilot checks should be a common occurrence if the user is doing more than just movement in combat.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Yes, he does. I play a Blood Angel Librarian with Signature Wargear (Jump Pack) on the same kill-team. But I didn't pick that gear because it was über, only because it fit my desired style. And as a temporary measure until I got the wings of sanguinius.

Distance is not an issue because only me and him need to stick together and form our own mini kill-team and use squad modes. Otoh, I might want to use Blood Frenzy anyway.

Jump Packs don't just have advantages. A clever enemy can snipe you out of mid-air where you have no cover and possibly take falling damage in addition. In fact, it should be possible to snipe the jump pack (nasty). Yeah, I don't think it's such a super-duper choice. It's great against genestealers under a blue sky though.

Alex

ak-73 said:

It's great until the flying Gargoyle hordes show up and claim the sky as theirs.

The winged Tyranid Warriors are even worse.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I'd rather fight those, including shrikes, than a horde of genestealers.

Alex

While I understand the concern of GMs regarding Jump Packs, I think they are definitely of greater benefit than detriment to the game.

When you look at the range on weapons, you'll notice that even if you play at a 4 foot by 6 foot game table, most of your player's ranged weapons will hit any target you place on a battle grid. Not only that, they'll likely receive a short-range bonus of +10 to their BS roll due to the fact that they will likely be within 50 squares of their miniature. (This is assuming you're using a battle grid and each square is 1 square meter) My players loved this until they realized that it meant that a Genestealer could charge from any of the pipes or building terrain pieces on the table and make Melee with them in the same round.

The fix for this was making each square 2 square meters. This meant that while most things were always in range, even in short range, it would take at least a round for things "off in the distance" to approach them in melee, while still allowing them a round to put damage on targets. This completely hosed the Librarian in the Kill-Team(admittedly only on the first round), and on a few occasions I mentioned a jump pack (which would double his base movement speed on the table), would allow him to make melee fasterif he desired.

From what I have seen, short of a Librarian rolling 001 on his Opposed Willpower test to use his Force Sword's extra damage dice, ranged characters do the majority of the Kill-Team's damage and put out incredible amounts of damage to anything on the table. Melee characters actually have to work to get to their targets to put inferior damage on their targets. A jump pack simply allows a melee character to reach his opponents on the first round (which a ranged character can already do without spending requisition for a jump pack), and even then, he can only make one attack on the charge! A ranged character simply plants his feet on the first round and lets go a Full Auto Burst!

For melee characters I think jump packs allow them to remain competitive in the game and feel like they are powerful members of the team. That they aren't just there to strip dodges off their adversaries for the Dev Marine to blow apart on the following round. (Well, maybe they are..)

Anyway, that's my defense for Jump Packs for melee characters. On the other hand, If my Tactical Marine player wanted to spend 10 rounds at 60 feet above the battle field spraying Hormogaunts and Tyrannid Warriors (Screw their crappy Ballistic Skill btw) with his Storm Bolter, I would probably four more Tyrannid Warriors on the table and explain they were armed with Venom Cannons . Yeah, we'll see how long he wants to stay airborne with no cover to hide behind.

That is the ultimate in ******-baggery though, and I do not condone such tactics. Remember, its your game. If you don't want ranged characters requisitioning Jump Packs, when they get to the Arming stage, you simply tell them they can't. If they want an "in game, RP reason", you tell them that their Forge Master was seconded from the Ultramarines and follows the dictates of the Codex Astartes to the letter, and that they are not cleared for the use of Jump Packs.

Just my two cents on it.