I assume "The Broken Spear" falls under the rules for a lasting effects in the FAQ during the phase in which it's used? Specifically I'm curious how it would work with something like Rusted Sword on a character that already has a military icon. If both of these weapons are on a character would the character keep a military icon when the Broken Spear is triggered?

The Broken Spear reads:
[Martell Attachment]
Weapon.
Any Phase: Kneel The Broken Spear to choose attached character. Until the end of the phase, that character either gains or loses a Military icon.

Rusted Sword reads:
[Neutral Attachment]
Item. Weapon.
Attached character gets +2 STR and gains an Military icon.
Any Phase: Kneel 1 influence to attach Rusted Sword from your hand to a character you control.

I Could be entirely wrong but I think the character loses the Military Icon when Broken Spear is used.

The reason for this is that Rusted Sword's effect is triggered once. The character is Granted the military Icon, hence the character has the Icon now. Broken Spear would remove said icon. Think of it in terms of Rusted Sword's 1st effect. If you played something like "Hatchling's Feast" to reduce the character's strength by 2 then the character would net 0 in strength modifiers. Hope that makes sense!

Madduxx said:

Yes.

If this character already has an icon it's: 1+1-1=1, so it has an icon.

If this character has no icon it's: 1-1=0, thus no icon.

DerBarchen said:

DerBarchen said:

DerBarchen said:

So as Rogue30 said above, "gains a military icon" effectively translates to "+1 military icon" while "loses a military icon" effectively translates to "-1 military icon." As stated in the rules, it makes no difference what order the effects were applied to the character in. You take +1 and -1 together to get "+0 military icons," meaning that the two modifiers cancel out (leaving the character with whatever printed icons it had).

DerBarchen said:

DerBarchen said:

The reason for this is that Rusted Sword's effect is triggered once. The character is Granted the military Icon, hence the character has the Icon now.

ktom said:

"Following this logic, if Rusted Sword leaves play, the character would still have the military icon."

Aye, this is where I assumed I was wrong, twas quite late at the time =P

ktom said:

"Order doesn't matter in this game."

Oh I know that much, I was just reffering to the other ability of the card. I guess I should have said Other effect instead of 1st, sorry for the confusion. Although doesnt Some order matter? Isnt that the whole reason for having a 1st player (apart from turn flow obviously) so you can have an easy way to sort out order in which effects hapen?

ktom said:

"Yes. You see how here you talk about "would net 0 in strength modifiers"? This is how it works. It wouldn't matter if the -2 modifier was put onto the character before the +2 modifier, either. They would always combine to net 0 in strength modifiers. Now apply what is coming naturally for STR to everything else - icon modifiers, trait modifiers, keyword modifiers, etc. You add up the modifiers for the icons the exactly the same way. The "gains 1" from the Sword and the "loses 1" from the Spear 'would net 0 in military icon modifiers."

Thats basically what I was getting at, I just got there weirdly =P This also answers another question I was going to ask, what if Rusted Sword was played After using Broken Spear? But if All modifiers are considered variables than its fine, it makes sense! Thanks Ktom!
ps. Still trying to figure out quoting properly >.>

DerBarchen said:

Only if there is a conflict which passive effect triggers first (e.g. Counting Favors vs Rule by Decree). Above situation is two constant effects - the beginning of those effects doesn't matter.

DerBarchen said:

Avoid editing your post.

DerBarchen said:

Rogue30 said:

There is often a lot of confusion over what the First Player can and cannot determine from time to time. Rogue30 has certainly pointed out the primary difference. Here's a little more detail on all of that:

1. Order never matters for constant effects - as defined above. You combine all modifiers and apply the result. The First Player cannot, for example, say "First Rusted Sword, then Broken Spear" and somehow turn the "net 0 modifier" into something else.
2. Order of actual triggered effects and Responses does "matter" in the sense that there is a turn order to the game for players. They are defined in the rules. The First Player cannot, for example, say "Player #2 gets to play a Response to losing the challenge before Player #3 gets to play a Response to winning it." Nor does the First Player get to say something like "all Responses to winning/losing the military challenge must be played before any Response to a character being killed." The game's timing structure doesn't work that way, defining the order of actions and Responses specifically.
3. All Passive effects are considered to take place at the same time. There is (usually) no order to them. For example, if at the end of the challenge phase Khal Drogo and Catelyn both need to be returned to their owner's hands and a Stark player gets to draw a card for Guard at Riverrun, the First Player does not get to say which one happens first. They are all considered to happen at the same time.

And yes: I have seen people try to claim First Player priority in all three of the above situations.

As Rogue30 says, the only time that timing matters - and there is thus a First Player determination - is when two or more passive effects are activated by the same thing (like revealing plots or the end of a challenge) and resolving one will impact the way that the other could be resolved and the effects of the two passives cannot reasonably be combined into a single result. The basic example is plots with the "when revealed" text, but another one is this:

Say that the challenge phase ends with the plot Battle of Oxcross out. The Targaryen player, who dropped Khal Drogo into play after winning a power challenge, has not won a military challenge that phase. The Targaryen player thus has to do two things at the end of the phase: choose and kill a character (in play) that he controls and return Khal Drogo to hand. If you return Khal Drogo to hand first, Oxcross cannot kill him, but if Oxcross goes first, it could kill Drogo before he is returned to hand. So the First Player decides the order, essentially defining the options available to the Targ player when Oxcross is resolved.

Do you see the difference between that and the Rusted Sword/Broken Spear example? If you can put the two together to give a net result, that's what you do. If you cannot, then the First Player's choice comes into play.

Just want to ask it states in the text that "Kneel The Broken Spear to choose attached character.: It is like I can change attached character every round after The Broken Spear stands?

goldenhk said:

What would make you think that? It doesn't say "Kneel The Broken Spear to attach it to a different character." The text says nothing about attaching it to anything, it merely refers to the card to which it is attached.

Saturnine said: