For a long while there was a perception on these forums that the Space Wolves were a 'poor choice' for almost every role and were mechanically disadvantaged. The errata has helped turn this around, and so too has Rites of Battle. Now, however, I'm wondering if we have a new contender for mechanically weak sauce: the Imperial Fists.
Opinions?
HappyDaze said:
For a long while there was a perception on these forums that the Space Wolves were a 'poor choice' for almost every role and were mechanically disadvantaged. The errata has helped turn this around, and so too has Rites of Battle. Now, however, I'm wondering if we have a new contender for mechanically weak sauce: the Imperial Fists.
Opinions?
I don't have RoB yet but from what I have heard it's because Siege warfare is a niche that does not appear as often in missions as other niches (close combat?). I got to see this stuff for myself but I think I might our house rule version better. It starts with +10WP which leaves me a bit head-scratching. I would have preferred +5T, +5WP - or one of those as a free characteristic choice.
Alex
HappyDaze said:
For a long while there was a perception on these forums that the Space Wolves were a 'poor choice' for almost every role and were mechanically disadvantaged. The errata has helped turn this around, and so too has Rites of Battle. Now, however, I'm wondering if we have a new contender for mechanically weak sauce: the Imperial Fists.
Opinions?
being able to purchess eye of vengence from chapter for 1k is pretty sweet. And the bolter drill squad mode giving all battle brothers bolter drill equally awesome. I would not even bother with the siegcraft talent unless I was a tech-marine possible since it allows it to stack with simular abilites they have. Also for librarians that Wave of Penance at rank 3 very nice every enemy withing 10xpr taks 1d10xPR explosive damage, good bye horde.
But the bolter drill only functions for other imperial fists, correct? It's a chapter squad mode ability.
WillisRBC said:
But the bolter drill only functions for other imperial fists, correct? It's a chapter squad mode ability.
Unless he is a Tacticle Marine. Basicly what I was saying is IF seem a good choice for Tech, Devestator, Librarian, or Tacticle marine given those abilites I listed.
I think this question misses the whole point of Deathwatch as a game. This is an RPG, and the focus should be on roleplaying. If you like Imperial Fists, play one. Who cares what bonuses or abilities they get. I Play Dark Angels because they are my tabletop army and I like their fluff. If all that matters are stats, you may want to rethink playing a role playing game. Don't fall into the MMO mindset. Play what you have fun with.
Delacross said:
I think this question misses the whole point of Deathwatch as a game. This is an RPG, and the focus should be on roleplaying. If you like Imperial Fists, play one. Who cares what bonuses or abilities they get. I Play Dark Angels because they are my tabletop army and I like their fluff. If all that matters are stats, you may want to rethink playing a role playing game. Don't fall into the MMO mindset. Play what you have fun with.
Well Said. I always give extra exp to the player that role played his character the best. It is fun when someone gets into thier role and character.
Delacross said:
I think this question misses the whole point of Deathwatch as a game. This is an RPG, and the focus should be on roleplaying. If you like Imperial Fists, play one. Who cares what bonuses or abilities they get. I Play Dark Angels because they are my tabletop army and I like their fluff. If all that matters are stats, you may want to rethink playing a role playing game. Don't fall into the MMO mindset. Play what you have fun with.
While I agree with you in principle, all people have the right to emphasize the parts of the game that they enjoy. It's not right to chastise someone for focusing on a different part of the game. For some, having a balanced mechanically-wise character no matter what chapter you are is important for their enjoyment.
Delacross said:
I think this question misses the whole point of Deathwatch as a game. This is an RPG, and the focus should be on roleplaying. If you like Imperial Fists, play one. Who cares what bonuses or abilities they get. I Play Dark Angels because they are my tabletop army and I like their fluff. If all that matters are stats, you may want to rethink playing a role playing game. Don't fall into the MMO mindset. Play what you have fun with.
People have been talking about this long before MMO. If anything, MMO make money out of the power-gaming tendencies in gamers. That said, mechanics and game world descriptions should fit each other. If the IF are the great defenders of Terra, the mechanics should reflect that.
Alex
Nimon said:
HappyDaze said:
For a long while there was a perception on these forums that the Space Wolves were a 'poor choice' for almost every role and were mechanically disadvantaged. The errata has helped turn this around, and so too has Rites of Battle. Now, however, I'm wondering if we have a new contender for mechanically weak sauce: the Imperial Fists.
Opinions?
being able to purchess eye of vengence from chapter for 1k is pretty sweet. And the bolter drill squad mode giving all battle brothers bolter drill equally awesome. I would not even bother with the siegcraft talent unless I was a tech-marine possible since it allows it to stack with simular abilites they have. Also for librarians that Wave of Penance at rank 3 very nice every enemy withing 10xpr taks 1d10xPR explosive damage, good bye horde.
Bolter Drill seems pretty underwhelming to me, after Rank 3 it's a bit more attractive, but still not too impressive. It also seems rather weakened by not being Sustained, so it's going to cost Cohesion every encounter it's used.
HappyDaze said:
Nimon said:
HappyDaze said:
For a long while there was a perception on these forums that the Space Wolves were a 'poor choice' for almost every role and were mechanically disadvantaged. The errata has helped turn this around, and so too has Rites of Battle. Now, however, I'm wondering if we have a new contender for mechanically weak sauce: the Imperial Fists.
Opinions?
being able to purchess eye of vengence from chapter for 1k is pretty sweet. And the bolter drill squad mode giving all battle brothers bolter drill equally awesome. I would not even bother with the siegcraft talent unless I was a tech-marine possible since it allows it to stack with simular abilites they have. Also for librarians that Wave of Penance at rank 3 very nice every enemy withing 10xpr taks 1d10xPR explosive damage, good bye horde.
Bolter Drill seems pretty underwhelming to me, after Rank 3 it's a bit more attractive, but still not too impressive. It also seems rather weakened by not being Sustained, so it's going to cost Cohesion every encounter it's used.
Giving your entire squad an ability that normaly a devastor doesnt get until rank 3 is not impressive? You increase your entire squads rate of fire by 1- against a horde that could be very effective even if it is just 1 round.
Nimon said:
HappyDaze said:
Nimon said:
HappyDaze said:
For a long while there was a perception on these forums that the Space Wolves were a 'poor choice' for almost every role and were mechanically disadvantaged. The errata has helped turn this around, and so too has Rites of Battle. Now, however, I'm wondering if we have a new contender for mechanically weak sauce: the Imperial Fists.
Opinions?
being able to purchess eye of vengence from chapter for 1k is pretty sweet. And the bolter drill squad mode giving all battle brothers bolter drill equally awesome. I would not even bother with the siegcraft talent unless I was a tech-marine possible since it allows it to stack with simular abilites they have. Also for librarians that Wave of Penance at rank 3 very nice every enemy withing 10xpr taks 1d10xPR explosive damage, good bye horde.
Bolter Drill seems pretty underwhelming to me, after Rank 3 it's a bit more attractive, but still not too impressive. It also seems rather weakened by not being Sustained, so it's going to cost Cohesion every encounter it's used.
Giving your entire squad an ability that normaly a devastor doesnt get until rank 3 is not impressive? You increase your entire squads rate of fire by 1- against a horde that could be very effective even if it is just 1 round.
No, I don't really find it impressive. Bolt Pistol at S/4/-, Bolter and Storm Bolter at S/3/5, and especially Heavy Bolter at -/-/11 just doesn't really do it for me regardless of what rank the Talent is normally found at. However, I will note that once it's paid for it lasts for the whole encounter, not just one turn. See the errata for how long "Sustained: No" lasts (one full encounter, unless the ability specifies it's shorter like that of the Black Templars and Blood Angels).
I also dislike the IFs' Primarch's Curse. It's 100% fluff with no mechanics. Even other Chapters that have fluffy PriCur still have mechanical effects attached. I see this one as 'lazy' on the part of the writer to not include at least some game mechanics to represent the IFs' PriCur.
The +10 Will makes them very good Librarian... and their Chapter Specific Librarian power are actually very good as well.
The Golden Son grants Fear (3) AND gives back 1d5 Cohesion point. Fear 3 is pretty massive, a lot of fight (especially against Hordes) will more or less be over as soon as he turns that on. On top of it, this effectively mean the team never run out of Cohesion points... it doesn't have a casting limit like the Ultra ability.
Into the Crucible gives Regeneration (3... not bad in combat, but it really shines in downtime - the Librarian will always be at full health. Apothecary or not. No need to burn fate points.
Wave of Penance is an area effect power that only hits hostiles, it doesn't hit friendly. That is simply retardly good. Just spam the hell out of that one has your main attack as soon as you learn it (rank 3) to deal 5d10 to every enemy within 50 meters. Derp. Will be even more fun at rank 8.
The 3 other powers are more situational... but none of them are bad (I think you can do something nice with Ultimate Sacrifice/Into the Crucible, especially if you boost your Toughness).
So yeah... IF Librarian = Never dies. Never run out of Cohesion. Impose massive Fear penalties to everyone. Deals disgusting amount of damage every turn to everyone. Could be worse.
So yeah... they may not be very good at other stuff, but they are incredible psychers...
Their solo ability is also really good with Devastator... as they will usually want to be in cover and shoot at people who are in cover.
Also they do get Eye of Vengence (which is very nice) and Willpower isn't exactly a bad stat for anyone either. So yeah, being the best at one class and okay at everything else seems to be where most Chapters fall?
Tarkand said:
The +10 Will makes them very good Librarian... and their Chapter Specific Librarian power are actually very good as well.
The Golden Son grants Fear (3) AND gives back 1d5 Cohesion point. Fear 3 is pretty massive, a lot of fight (especially against Hordes) will more or less be over as soon as he turns that on. On top of it, this effectively mean the team never run out of Cohesion points... it doesn't have a casting limit like the Ultra ability.
Into the Crucible gives Regeneration (Psy)... not bad in combat, but it really shines in downtime - the Librarian will always be at full health. Apothecary or not. No need to burn fate points.
Wave of Penance is an area effect power that only hits hostiles, it doesn't hit friendly. That is simply retardly good. Just spam the hell out of that one has your main attack as soon as you learn it (rank 3) to deal 5d10 to every enemy within 50 meters. Derp. Will be even more fun at rank 8.
The 3 other powers are more situational... but none of them are bad (I think you can do something nice with a high level psy rating and Ultimate Sacrifice/Into the Crucible, especially if you boost your Toughness).
So yeah... IF Librarian = Never dies. Never run out of Cohesion. Impose massive Fear penalties to everyone. Deals disgusting amount of damage every turn to everyone. Could be worse.
So yeah... they may not be very good at other stuff, but they are incredible psychers...
Also they do get Eye of Vengence (which is very nice) and Willpower isn't exactly a bad stat for anyone either. So yeah, being the best at one class and okay at everything else seems to be where most Chapters fall?
The Golden Sun doesn't give back 1d5 Cohesion - it only counteracts Cohesion damage. Cohesion damage is primarily inflicted by Fear-causing enemies and is different from simply running low on Cohesion due to spending it on squad patterns. if you haven't taken Cohesion famage, then the power grants 1 Cohesion, and there is no reason to believe that this stacks with multiple uses (most things in DW do not stack). So, while the Fear 3 portion is powerful, I don't really find that the "team never runs out of Cohesion points" to be true.
OTOH, Wave of Penance does appear to be quite powerful.
HappyDaze said:
I think the trick with this is that you're not just giving yourself bolter drill in this case, it's that your whole team gets it. If you have a team of one or two, maybe not so big a deal, but with a team of 5 or 6, that's 5 or 6 hits a turn you just gave your squad.
Definitely situational, but I wouldn't call it weak.
HappyDaze said:
I'm a little underwhelmed.
The skills list is rather short and dull. It also lacks IF personality. Where are the cheap extra wounds? Why no trade (scrimshaw)? How does Eye of Vengeance reflect the Chapter? And the new talent is kinda cool but there should have been more.
The solo ability is actually pretty cool.
The Patterns are as dull as ditchwater. Both can be replicated with talents, and Patterns should be more special than that.
Stats should have been +5WP and +5T too, if you ask me. Instead of making tough, stand-at-all-costs Marines, the rules have created a Chapter that you if you want to be a Librarian.
Siranui said:
I'm a little underwhelmed.
The skills list is rather short and dull. It also lacks IF personality. Where are the cheap extra wounds? Why no trade (scrimshaw)? How does Eye of Vengeance reflect the Chapter? And the new talent is kinda cool but there should have been more.
The solo ability is actually pretty cool.
The Patterns are as dull as ditchwater. Both can be replicated with talents, and Patterns should be more special than that.
Stats should have been +5WP and +5T too, if you ask me. Instead of making tough, stand-at-all-costs Marines, the rules have created a Chapter that you if you want to be a Librarian.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one.
The Chapter's Defensive Stance is particularly dull. I'd even rather have Courage Under Fire (immediate recovery from being Pinned as a Free Action with Cost 0) since it still seems more useful to me. There are a ton of ways to avoid Fear in this game (like the IF psychic power Noble Praetorian and Chaplains too), so I'd rather not waste a Chapter Defensive Stance on it.
I like +5 Toughness, +5 Willpower better than +10 Willpower too.
Frankly, I'm far happier with my own version -written months ago- than the official one. I'll certainly now be penning my own remaining Founding Chapters, rather than waiting for anything official.
HappyDaze said:
I also dislike the IFs' Primarch's Curse. It's 100% fluff with no mechanics. Even other Chapters that have fluffy PriCur still have mechanical effects attached. I see this one as 'lazy' on the part of the writer to not include at least some game mechanics to represent the IFs' PriCur.
The mechanics are in the Core Rule Book, there is another forum where someone mentioned this. I think we have proven that IF are very capable the way they are written; If you still think they are not then I guess do not use them or change them yourself.
Howdy!
I am pleased with the IF. I believe the +10 WP captures the " never give up " mind set of the Sons of Dorn. I agree that they are going to be the power gamer "go to" Librarian chapter. Just like DA for devastators and BA for Assault Marines. I did vomit a little in my mouth when I read the wave of pentience psychic power. A half action, 1d10xPR to every enemy within a 10m x PR radius. Rank 1 push for a 6d10 in a 60 meter radius. And sustained regeneration at your PR. WOW! Solo abilty is solid and the deeds are good as well.
Wave of Penance is rank 3 tho, so you can't get it at rank 1.
Still, all it means is you'll have 5 psy when you get it...
major shultz said:
I must be a bit of an oddity then. I don't mind power gaming to a certain degree, but I actually find that some of the "go to" options don't appeal to me. The character I'm getting ready to play is a Dark Angels Assault Marine, and he's still plenty good. I guess the IF just don't really seem too appealing to me outside of the Librarian role, and since that's a role I am not too interested in playing...
HappyDaze said:
major shultz said:
I must be a bit of an oddity then. I don't mind power gaming to a certain degree, but I actually find that some of the "go to" options don't appeal to me. The character I'm getting ready to play is a Dark Angels Assault Marine, and he's still plenty good. I guess the IF just don't really seem too appealing to me outside of the Librarian role, and since that's a role I am not too interested in playing...
Really? +5 BS and +5 Int and a bunch of lores is what a DA gets, and you think not only is this better then IF, but you chose assualt marine? If you really want to go by "mechanics" alone Storm Wardens or Black Templars would be a better choice.