I dont have the scenario infront of me, but if I dont remember incorrectly US units has line of sight to all important german positions. Which then leads to a simple start of firing. Bang, bang, bang! In other scenarios you first have to move into position and then start firing. How about forcing the US to start with either a movement or fire and movement action? Then one 88 might cause some slight problems for a short while. Also, MG-guns may fire first round causing some US cassulties before they enter.

An idea that recently came to my mind was to have the Americans not start on the map. Let them arrive just like in the Operation Goodwood during the first round with a "move" or "move n fire" actions instead. Coupled with the Flak 88, this would pretty balance some issues.

Grand Stone said:

Lovely.

LoL!

I agree with von Stichen

heyho folks... i just started a new game with a buddy. we used 4 (instead of 6) sherman tanks and the "light rain"-weather card being in play right from the start ( this is a cool idea, from my point of view...)

now, after app. 4 rounds, it seems to us that this minor fixes save the scenario (and - much more importantly - the whole campaign!). we even followed the advice not to place units in houses and pillboxes, which was very useful. most of the german forces are now having a great time firing from the woods at the advancing american troops ;-). using the watchdog-leadership deck was also tremendously helpul, since placing a minefield in the objectivce hex was very tricky, hehe...

ok. maybe i`ll visit the siegfried line during spring this year and send some photos in. i do live next to it :-). as far as i know, between aachen and jülich there are some bunkers and pillboxes said still to be existing, we`ll see :-) may the bear be with you, hehe :-).

greetz from germany!!!

Grand Stone said:

Well, basically the same problem arises in 'Bloody Omaha' (although it;s a very balanced scenario!): Rather than getting off the beaches as quickly as possible, the strategy to win for the US is to combine fire against the bunkers on turn 1 (guaranteed success as long as you include enough units) and only to advance once any German units in op-fire (typically MGs in the bunker) have been taken out.

Certainly also an idea to have the US start with an advance or move and fire...Maybe simply removing two Shermans might also help a lot. Indeed, the US have LOS to all important German positions and what you described IS exactly what happened: Tanks fire at important German positions, which are all gone after just one or two US action turns, then the Germans, having learned their lesson, move out of LOS and the US troops advance without anyone shooting at them. As soon as any German unit reappears the Shermans and/or as yet unactivated squads deal with it...

von Stichen said:

Great idea! Indeed this would make it a move and fire (or just a move) in natural way and would make combined firfe impossible on US turn 1. Then of course they could do it at the start of round 2, but the Germans, putting all their command on initiative, can procure to once again have initiative in that way! Really like this "fix" as well! I guess we'll try this one today, because 'light rain' would hamper the Germans just as much as it does the Americans...

Game in progress. Wé decided to use the original map set-up, but we added an 88 to the German forces. In addition, as suggested by Von Stichen, we decided to have the Americans move onto the map thereby basically forcing them to make an advance or move and fire action on turn 1. This eliminates the problem of combined fire from the shermans against any Germans in pillboxes or buildings on turn 1. So far these are great improvements. I did make one huge mistake, though. Instead of placing my 88, a squad to man it and an MG in op fire on the hill on map 1A, I put the 88 and squad in the woods on map 8B and the MGs in op fire in the pillboxes. This allowed the american player to easily avoid them..

Had I done what I should have done, I'd have gotten long-range shots and virtually all of his infantry units and would probably also have been able to take out one Sherman without risking return fire as this isn't allowed during a fire and move action...

More later...

PS: where is the ammo depot? We decided to use the barracks as an ammo depot as well...Didn't see anything in the scenario special rule and we didn't seem to be able to find any such hex on the board...

"Finished" today's game. That is, we played four full turns. We're both rather slow players; discussing strategy, digressing, food breaks etc. However, wer do feel that the two minor changes (Germans get an 88 at set-up, we played that the German player could assign it to the division of his choice,, and the Americans being obliged to enter the board with a move and fire or advance action, are a tremendous improvement to the scenario. I still feel that the US reinforcement deck might be a potential problem ( they already start out with hugely numerically superior forces after all), but this didn't become apparent in the four turns played.

Unfortunately I've had to pack up the game again. The Commander in Chief doesn't like small army men taking up the entire living room table...

I'll be playing it again omn Saturday, though with another gaming buddy. He tends to be a faster player, although I'll also have to take care of my daughter in the meantime...Anyway, as I said we can confidently and decidedly say that the two tweaks are a huge improvement!!!

Kingtiger said:

Not? Tell the commander in chief that without these army men, you will loose

Looking forward to next report

hi,

a buddy and i just finished another try of this scenario. the game ended during round 7 with an american total victory. we used the following changes:

- minus two shermans for the americans at the start of the game

- the "light rain"- weather card being in play right from the start

- no germans were placed in pillboxes/houses during setup

well, uh, during round 7 there were only 2 german squads and a heavily damaged panther still in play, but 10 american squads (due to reinforcements), 2 undamaged m10s, 2 undamaged shermans, 1 lightly damaged sherman and one heavily damaged sherman. the germans never had a real chance against this maelstrom of tanks.

from our point of view, even with this tweaks in favor of the germans, this scenario is still heavy in favor towards the americans and nearly unwinable for the germans. piercing the sigfried line should be renamed into "panzerblitzing through the siegfried line" :-). this scenario is unbalanced from our point of view, which is really bad for the whole campaign (sorry bill!) ;-)).

ok, may be there are other opinions about making this scenario more attractive to play. greetz from germany!!!

Cipheron said:

Ballancing the scenario is not enough. If germans units are placed anywere except in the fortification, well, then its not a fortification.

Some fortifications are just nok worth defending, or build to cover the wrong threat.

Grand Stone said:

And a fortification is not a fortification because of the combined fire. Nor armor is armor anymore.

von Stichen said:

I disagree. To get at a unit in a fortification, you have to fatigue several units AND sacrifice their mobility for the round. That ties down resources which you would need eslewhere.

I partly agree with you KlausFritsch. Combined fire does requier to fatitude more units, and mobility. However, it is also clear that you cannot create fortifications which is problematic to handle, due to combine fire, without making it rediculus powerfull versus a single unit.

But on the other issue, its quit clear that if the enemy has tanks, then an entrenchement in wood is in many ways a better fortification than a pillbox. It does sound odd to me.

Grand Stone said:

That is because pillboxes are stationary targets which are a lot easier to spot from a tank than foxholes and which cannot change position (even in the same hex, infantry are constantly looking for better cover) once it is spotted.

In a ww2 context fortifications were pretty much useless unless they were massive complexes of interlinked bunkers. From a tankers point of view, it is much simpler to identify and spot a good amingpoint on a pillbox, bunker or building, than it is to find one when confronted with a hole in the ground.

Combined fire can often sweep any static defensive position. This makes it vital to keep defences fluid enough to make the attacker either unable to use combined fire, or lure him into sacrificing so much mobility that han can not make his deadlines. Many a scenario can be won without any units left on the board.

Combined fire requires a surplus of either time, or units. TOI is very much a game of choosing the ballance between shooting and running.

Cipheron said:

Well, as I said above, our tweaks seemed to work a lot better: Add an 88 to the German forces at set up(division of choice) and have the Americans enter with a fire and move or advance action.

Changing weather doesn't really help the germans that much as it hurts them as much as it does the Americans.

I agree with another poster that you SHOULD be able to conduct a fluid defense. However, it shouldn't ALWAYS be a bad idea to be inside a pillbox. At least on turn 1 it's safe for the Germans to set up there as the Americans won't really be able to combine fire if the restriction/ special rule of having to move onto the board is used for. Even then many US units won't be ab;e to fire even individually, because when making a move and fire you're not allowed to fire from long range which is exactly where most US units will still be. If you place an MG, a squad and the 88 on the hill hex on 28A, you're guaranteed to do some damage. I'd go for normal fire. Probably you'll lose the 88 on turn 2 then (1 or 2 Shermans in Op fire) if you try to move it ort if you don't move you'll get eliminated for sure, but may still take an American unit with you as long as you win initiative, which is highly likely as it's easy to take the 5 command points. The US can get 4 at most. You will have done some damage and that will level the playing field somewhat.

As I said, we found the scenario to be much more balanced like this, although it is indeed true that we only played four full rounds. However, the first time we played it it didn't even take us an entire action phase before opting to set up a new scenario, so a huge improvement!!!

Cipheron said:

Cipheron said:

Well, as I said above, our tweaks seemed to work a lot better: Add an 88 to the German forces at set up(division of choice) and have the Americans enter with a fire and move or advance action.

Changing weather doesn't really help the germans that much as it hurts them as much as it does the Americans.

I agree with another poster that you SHOULD be able to conduct a fluid defense. However, it shouldn't ALWAYS be a bad idea to be inside a pillbox. At least on turn 1 it's safe for the Germans to set up there as the Americans won't really be able to combine fire if the restriction/ special rule of having to move onto the board is used for. Even then many US units won't be ab;e to fire even individually, because when making a move and fire you're not allowed to fire from long range which is exactly where most US units will still be. If you place an MG, a squad and the 88 on the hill hex on 28A, you're guaranteed to do some damage. I'd go for normal fire. Probably you'll lose the 88 on turn 2 then (1 or 2 Shermans in Op fire) if you try to move it ort if you don't move you'll get eliminated for sure, but may still take an American unit with you as long as you win initiative, which is highly likely as it's easy to take the 5 command points. The US can get 4 at most. You will have done some damage and that will level the playing field somewhat.

As I said, we found the scenario to be much more balanced like this, although it is indeed true that we only played four full rounds. However, the first time we played it it didn't even take us an entire action phase before opting to set up a new scenario, so a huge improvement!!!

Folks thanks for all the feedback. Kingtiger did you take pics and record the action if so could you e-mail me at [email protected]. and if you didn't no worries. Cipheron don't worry if you don't like the scenario constructive feedback helps me make better ones.

i've got some ideas to fix the pillbox problems but i need to playtest them first as it might change play balance

i like the fortified buildings idea.

BJaffe01

BJaffe01 said:

If you need help playtesting, cuont me in.

KlausFritsch said:

And me!

BJaffe01 said:

No, sorry didn't take any pics.Batteries of our digital camera were empty again. Really need to get a new one.

Anyway, I played the scenario again today. It was an American win on turn 6. That is, the germans conceded. The US had occupied the hex in which the German reinforcements were meant to enter play, meaning that they wouldn't. The Americans were also set to enter the barracks (although they still would have had to fight hard for the, but there was no doubt that in as many as six more turns they would have managed for sure.

We used the same rules as last time: Germans + one 88mm AT gun and US enters on turn one by advance or move and fire action. This time I positioned the 88 on the hill on 28A along with an MG in op-fire and a squad to man the 88 (although in hindsight, I suppose the MG in op-fire would have qualified to do that as well by itself...nothing in the rules preventing that, does it (unit in op-fire manning equipment, which might not be in op-fire itself?). Obviously my oppent did the smart thing to do: He entered the shermans on the far side of the board where they were constantly out of side from the 88 (blind hexes created by the woods). The MG did get many shots at the US infantry, eliminating around seven or 8 figurines all in all. It certainly helped to weaken the US squads and felt natural and right as we considered it normal that when you''re attacking a highly fortified defensive position that you're bound to suffer some casualties on the approaches. He could've diverted more of these squads to the far edge of the board as well along with the tanks, but he wanted to attack on both flanks.

A few turns later (but it had eliminated a couple of empty trucks, used to spot for off-board artillery and mortars, and kept the Shermans at bay)the 88t was finally eliminated by two Shermasn making a move and fire attack (one after the other). The squads meant to operate it had been pinned or disrupted.

Question: does the desperate defenders card allow pinned and/or disrupted squads to operate AT guns at half-firepower? We played that it did (since a friendly officer would allow the very same thing as can be found in the FAQ).

Some Shermans easily breached the German lines near the German positions removing the barbed wire. We found it very easy for the Shermans just to race through the German positions (Remember they don't HAVE TO clear razor wire, they can also just ignore it and treat the hex as c;lear): some tank traps might come in handy here and would also be historically accurate. I suggest putting three of them on the road hexes where there are currently barbed wire markers.

In the meantime the newly arrived Panzer IV and a Shreman that had LOS to it, knocked one another out. After that more or less the situation as described at the beginning of this post was reached. Final suggestions:

* Add 88 to German set-up forces (or possibly two PAK40s, one for each division instead; I'm assuming them to have firepower 11 or so...)

* Replace 3 barbed wire by 3 tank traps (road hexes)

* have US forces enter the board rather than to let them set up on it.

We feel that these changes should make the scenario a LOT more balanced! Obviously one of the pillboxes that's curently in the open being moved to a nearby woods hex would also help. The biggest "flaw"is absolutely the overwhelming US tank forces. The above should all help to level out the playing field!

Glad you like the fortified buildings suggestion, which of course is also you could toy around with!

I don't think it's a bad scenario at all, that is currently it seems all but unwinnabale for the germans against an equally skilled opponet, but just a few changes will actually make it a VERY intersting scenario!

Thanks Kingtiger that's the kind of write i can use.

don't worry i'll include you and KlausFritsch in my pillbox idea

BJaffe01