That is good news, maybe we can get some good examples of these Heroines of the Emperor in action. I think alot of people did not realize the amount of females interested in this game setting, or consider the possible repercussions if you did not let your wife in on the sessions! I really like the sisters, because they are not just female space-marines, they are unique with a differant set of skills. I hope this new book brings some of that concept to the light.

Lynata said:

We also had a badly done portrayal of Sisters in Redemption Corps. It looks to me like the Canoness is a heretic in there. I really wanted to like the book but the author couldn't decided on how he was writing the book and I had little to no interest in most of the characters except the Priest. In the book is a 16 year old Celestian with a Crusader shield and a Canoness who deals with aliens to test the Imperium (oh and she had pins in her head like nails sticking out). The author I think got them all wrong and of course the Canoness and her Celestian bodyguard are no match for a single stormtrooper captain. Heck even the fight scenes were bad.

andrewm9 said:

That Canoness sounds like a "special" case as well.

****, are James Swallow, Dan Abnett, Kev Walker and Ben Counter the only storywriters capable of producing any decent depictions of Sororitas characters? I get that there's always a strong disparity between a novel's protagonists and antagonists, similar to how the respective army is always hyped in its own Codex, but they could at least get the basics right. Which brings us back to how little most people know about the backgrounds of the Sisterhood - their doctrines, their gear and their rituals. A problem that seems to exist both within the fandom as well as amongst authors. We can only hope it gets better the more official stuff on them is released. Though, of course, this still only works if a writer is actually interested in an accurate portrayal.

I have a suggestion for that, getting more info on the Sister history and what not. Jervis Johnson, he should be the man in the know and now as GW has joined the 20 century and got a facebook page I wonder if the Head of Design at GW would answer a few questions?

andrewm9 said:

andrewm9 said:

I hate to draw ire to myself, but the only tiem so far Ive found Sisters of Battle even half interesting were in the Novels Redemption Corps and Flesh and Iron.

Other then that, I have found them very bland. And I see no issue with a Storm Trooper commando officer special character beign able to best these characters. For the most part, SoB have the same TT stat line as TT Storm Troopers and even in DH SoB are a Rank 1 option while ST are a what, rank 8 and Ascension level character?

I think they meant more as the 'respect' of the fluff; sorta if I wrote a 40k Novel about Brother-Captain Hawk of the Ultramarine, trying is best to juggle between service to the Emperor, being a model husband, and finish off that Xeno purge before his lil' Suzy music recital at school, all the while having to deal with sexual tension at work from that newly sworn-in, headstrong and mysterious female Space Marine with long Crimson hair.

And don't get me started on his drinking problem that's getting him in trouble with the press; will the good people of Neo-Earth still vote for him on the next Chapter elections? Or shall his corrupt and power-hungry competitor, Commissar Hex, will beat him using his blackmailing Guardsmen?

OH THE DRAMA

Peacekeeper_b said:

If you compare a Veteran Stormtrooper to a rank and file Battle Sister of the TT, yes. The difference between power armour and carapace is just a single point, after all. Against a Celestian or even a Canoness, however? Might as well knock down a Space Marine Captain.

As for DH: I agree, this irritated me as well, considering that SoB are supposed to be the more elite force in the fluff, and especially as the Stormtrooper was already in the Guardsman's normal rank chart. That said, the rank of Canoness isn't even possible to attain in DH. The highest you can raise is the Palatine from Ascension.
I still think DH was just too early for Sisters. At least fully-fledged ones. I'm currently pondering about writing up some alternate rank charts which should deal with both the balancing issue at rank 1 as well as make the progression feel more "fitting". Either going Novice from 1-4 and Sister 5-8, or committing all 8 levels of DH to a Novice's "Trial by Fire" and make the Sister an Ascension character. For the moment that's just some brainstorming, though. I'm still not entirely sure which of the two options would be best; they each have some pro's and con's.

Anyways: Don't get me wrong, I'm quite used to the idea that protagonists may easily triumph against the most surrealistic odds. That's just worth a single second of rolling one's eyes and a cheap cop out for a proper climax. When the writer makes clear that he didn't bother to do his research, however, that's when it becomes a real issue. Novels are supposed to deliver a certain degree of quality, otherwise it's just an off-the-mill fanwank in printed form sold for real money.

Bet that Stormtrooper actually fought the Canoness and the Celestian together and still came out as a winner...

Braddoc said:

Oh yeah...

Something I noticed is that a lot of authors are "humanizing" the Astartes to make them more interesting as characters. Few writers succeed at balancing their awesomeness with social flaws. A good story dealing with this was "Know Thine Enemy" from Gav Thorpe. Perfect depiction of a Marine's aloofness and irritation at dealing with normal Guardsmen, and their reaction to that kind of conduct. It was just a very small piece of flavor on top of the entire story, but it made the Marines seem so much more like the mystical warriors they are always described as, and less like US Special Forces with oversized guns occasionally spouting some spiel about honour and the Emperor to remind the reader they actually are what it says on their power armour, which is how they seem to be done most of the time.

Soooo...that means you're not gonna buy my Novel? **** and Brother-Captain Hawk even had a Clark Gable mustache!

I see more the IH sister as, like said, a novice who's only starting to sharpen thier teeth in front of the greater Imperium, 'loaned' to the Inquisition due to some ancient deal, a favour, or simply to prepare the novice to recognize heresy adn think on her feet by "herself' rahter than always falling back to her superiors. Maybe even she was found with too many bended atoms and wasn't judge a valid candidate for Battle Sister stauts, but not too hapless to stay behind at the Convent or Abbey. While the BoS sister is more someone who got a few notches on her boltgun, and gets into the -I- for pretty much the same reason as the Novice. she's a full-fledged member of her Order, but still a foot-soldier; got potential, but need to show it. and since the sister don't bring into action every day well, might as well use the next best thing, the Inquisition.

Lynata said:

Lets remember something here. All of these people are simply humans. They are not genetically enhances, super wizards or anything. They have titles and ranks. The Celestian and canoness in the novels, any novel, any fluff, are simply people who have attained a certain rank or title. In that same novel, the Storm Trooper comando officer also once survived the destruction of his own planet, so he is a super uber special character, probably with the TT equivalent of Toughness 5, multiple wounds and feel no pain if not more abilities.

You speak as if SoB are the best there will ever be at everything. They arent. They are highly trained, highly effecient, very well equipped and have some faith talents. Nothing more. And if Miss Heretical Canoness decides to make a 16 year old inexperienced girl her Celestian Bodyguard then thats her problem not mine.

Chances are, these sisters of battle come from a "blighted schola", have a few or more coruption points and are low on the faith talents and abilities.

Storm Trooper. Human. Sister. Human.

Storm Trooper. Schola trained. Sister. Schola Trained.

Storm Trooper. Battlefield Tested. Sister. Battlefield Tested.

Storm Tropper. A single entry in the IG Book. Sister. Own codex.

Im sure they could publish Codex Storm Trooper if GW wanted to. In 3E of the TT there were even rules for making your entire IG army Storm Troopers.

So I will stand up and say I agree, Storm Troopers shouldnt have a Ascended class and shouldnt be so high on the rank chart even in DH core (Rank 5 tops is what they should be) and Sisters of battle shouldnt be 25 pages out of a special book to describe their career, they are a series of alternate ranks for Clerics, at best.

And I dont want to offend anyone, its just how I feel about the subject.

Peacekeeper_b said:

The difference is that a Canoness usually also has a century more of experience and the best wargear the Imperium has to offer, from power armour up to plasma and inferno pistols and power swords plus sanctified cloaks which provide an even further increase in protection (+3 all locations in DH). What does the Stormtrooper get? A carapace and a high-powered laspistol? As I said, can just as well beat up a Space Marine Captain.

As I said, obviously this can still happen (both against a Canoness as well as against the Marine), but I don't consider it a "good style" when characters triumph over opponents way out of their own league just for the purpose of having a climatic showdown, especially when it happens single-handedly. May be a matter of taste and perception, but such encounters just scream Mary-Sue to me, and backgrounds like "sole survivor" and "super uber special" don't really help to alleviate this prejudice.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I'd say that's a problem of the author of that novel, but YMMV.

Peacekeeper_b said:

The Sororitas don't work that way. Which again ties in what I wrote earlier about the common knowledge/perception about them.

As for the corruption, is this established in the book? Does the author give any kind of reason for why the Canoness acts the way she does? Also: How did the fight go? Did that officer have the backup of his squad? Did he fight those two Sisters separately or both at once? Given that I have not read the novel, I'd appreciate to know these details, as this may change my perception of what was described here.

Peacekeeper_b said:

By that same logic Space Marines are just Guardsmen with Unnatural Toughness and power armour.
It's not the first time I see this opinion, though it wonders me every time, given that the only thing connecting Clerics to Sisters is that both work for the Ministorum. They have a different background/history, a different organization, different training, different tasks/roles and different equipment. Even their perception of the galaxy and religion itself isn't really the same, bar some exceptions.

And actually it's 22 pages vs 12 that Clerics get in the same book. I suppose Clerics would be able to get more, were it not for their rather broad background. They are, as a career, simply not as "focused" as Sororitas, no doubt owing to the many variations of Imperial Faith and the influence that a Cleric's homeworld has on him- or herself as a person and as a preacher. This does not exist for the Sisterhood; they are much more uniform and thus both easier as well as more mandatory to describe in detail. A Cleric's background is very much in the hands of the player, it's hard to do such a character "wrong". Sororitas characters, on the other hand, have to stick to a very narrow window. Whilst this requirement may not be something for all players, it's what sets them apart. In the end, it is the player's choice what kind of character he does, and if someone likes the idea of a heavily dogmatized and strict career, he should be given the information to do it right. Which is exactly what BoM was meant for.

That said, IG will get its own special book (Only War) soonish as well, and I do expect the Stormtrooper being made available much earlier. This is at least one thing where we seem to agree.

Lynata said:

This; one of the reason why I don't accept SoB chars right outta the bat without seeing the player 'in action' and his fluff knowledge

In my opinion, one of the places DH trips up consistently is their attempt to represent specific aspects of the fluff with specific careers.

This is a Roleplaying Game; the careers should focus on broad character archetypes to give players the most universal building blocks from which to construct their own, unique, character. Background, training, history, allegiances, beliefs and all such things are the purview of the player's chosen backstory, and shouldn't hinge solely on their career choice.

It's not that I necessarily object with FFG trying to emulate some of the more iconic items of 40k, after all the real strength of this game is how compelling the setting is. It's just that when you have, on the one hand, an option as broad as "assassin" or "scum" and on the other hand "Sister of Battle" which refers only to a specific class of warrior serving a specific institution who were all raised a specific way... well it just runs into matters of scale. Same issue arises with things like Vindicare assassin.

In my opinion, ignore whatever they happen to call the ranks and just let your players do the heavy lifting of characterization. Guardsmen represents any semi-formally trained combat-centric background, in other words it's just "Soldier". Storm Trooper in Ascension? Could, with perhaps a few modifications, just as easily represent an elite mercenary force or such.

Most careers in DH work that way - though you could probably make it even broader by not using classes at all, but that's another topic. Some of the more iconic options of the 40k setting do require both special rules as well as an extensive description of their background in order to allow an accurate representation, though. In essence, there is no middle ground, either you do it right or you don't do it at all. People who don't like the Sororitas can easily just don't allow any Sisters in their campaign, but in groups where they are used this should happen close to how they were depicted in the fluff.

Same thing as with Space Marines.

Peacekeeper_b said:

You're fine. I really wanted to like Redemption Corps myself but I didn't. Mortensen wasn't interesting at all as a character to me. Yes he was a bad ass and a survivor but I wanted more about him than that. The only figures I found remotely interesting in the book were the pilot and priest who really didn't get enough air time. i don't really care that Mortensen won his fights against a Seraphim, a Celestian, or even a Canoness (or even that they were the villains) as it was in his character to do so and he made it look easy at most points but the portrayal of the Sisters as heretics bothered me so much it detracted from the novel immensely as I didn't think the author got it or the universe completely.

On another note, stormtroopers don't receive the level of hth training that certain classes of Sisters do; meaning the Celestians and Seraphim. A Battle Sister canoness is often raised from one of those groups. She is a veteran of quite a few campaigns with often a century or more under her belt. It goes back to my old addage that Sisters of Battle are punching bags for Black Library authors. We can't make Space Marines look bad so we will beat on the Sisters as the next most elite. Sisters are rarely portrayed in a good light by authors. This is why i think we are getting the audio book and sequel to Faith and Fire this year to help pump up the Sisters in the fiction.

andrewm9 said:

I dont disagree (nor agree) with you here. I had no issue with Mortensen kicking their asses at that point in the novel (we already had seen him best a ork in hand to hand and out fight a Imperial Assassin). I also had no overly large connection with Mortensen (basically I think it was a love letter to Viggo Mortensen) but I enjoyed the overall novel for its setting, its use of mixed-xenos (Orks, Nids, even Ogryns oh-my), its use of a forge world as a battleground and I enjoyed seeing factions of the big =][= go at it.

As for why there are so few Sister books, probably the same reason we dont see an update to the codex for them or thier minis. More interest in IG and Space Marines from the fans.

I will, however, rescend my comments against Sisters at this point as it seems the God Emperor has punished me, as while I was away at work, the dog at my Witch Hunters codex.

andrewm9 said:

Very true. The fact that James Swallow is involved makes me feel good about these books, and I'll be even happier if the characters from Faith & Fire become recurring ones. Canoness Galatea was simply badass - not because she won any epic/crazy fights, but simply by her sheer conduct and the way her dialogue was written. Given that Miriya was transferred back into an active line unit at the conclusion of F&F also makes her likely to be amongst the team sent to investigate Sanctuary 101.

That said, I've heard a lot of rumors about Sisters of Battle getting their own new Codex in Dec 2011 or Jan 2012 during the past days. No idea how much truth there is to that, but yesterday someone pointed out that BL books are often timed to chime in with new GW releases. Given that Hammer & Anvil is scheduled for December 2011, and that Red & Black is also in production right now, and that Faith & Fire went into reprint... Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I have to admit, I was suddenly excited.

From a conversation with Jes Goodwin, GW sculptor: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/328983.page
Just one of the many google hits on the subject: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2010/12/2011-codex-release-schedule.html

If they are doing new miniatures this could explain why GW is currently in the process of clearing its stock of the current models, phasing out the old in order to make room for the new version. From what I've heard the Immolator is already out of stock, indefinitely. If you fancy some of the old minis, get them whilst they're still available.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Wow, really? Sorry to hear that … but that is a pretty scary coincidence. O_o

Peacekeeper_b said:

I think they might sell better (the minis) if they were updated and weren't potrayed as wastes of space (ie punching bags in the fiction). If Space Marines looked stupid (by their actions) in fiction, weren't updated and/or had bad rules nobody would buy them either I think and we wouldn't have the super-cool Deathwatch RPG. (I'm not even really that big of a Space Marine fan and I dig the game). Sisters haven't seen a mini update in almost 13 years for basic troops and 6 years for other things. My army was largely minted in 1997. They also have 1 novel were they look OK and appaer in several other novels as idiots, losers, or push-overs (and heretics in one case).

On the other hand I love the Imperial Guard or at least their tanks. I really dig the Gaunt's Ghosts as novels (Ravenor and Eisenhorn as well for that matter)

Talking of books with SoB in them I am surprised no one has mentioned the first Shira Calpurnia novel Crossfire. In there the sisters are seen doing their job of guarding the great cathedral of the world and are portrayed as competent and dangerous to be on the wrong side of. And even when caught by surprise in their own sanctuary by a relentless (and non-human) assassin they rally quickly and soon the flames of purity triumph!

I know that they are not the focus of the novel but they are done well (in my humble opinion).

DW

In regards to Redemption Corps... at its heart, the idea of presenting the Adepta Sororitas as antagonists was, in my opinion, a good one. The execution left a fair bit to be desired in general, but a fair few of the underlying ideas worked.

Simply put, we seldom really see inter-organisational conflict within the Imperium depicted in the novels (we see plenty of individual/personal machinations, which are a similar but distinct matter), yet it's supposedly something that happens quite frequently. It is entirely likely that an otherwise-loyal servant of the Imperium could end up being regarded as an enemy by the Adepta Sororitas or any of a number of other groups, factions and organisations, and from the outside looking in, the Sororitas could well look entirely unreasonable in their accusations and dangerously obsessive (even by Imperial standards) in their zeal. I personally see nothing wrong with that, and would encourage further attempts to depict such things, especially in Dark Heresy, where at least a third of a group's accumulated enemies should easily be fellow servants of the Imperium (at least, that's how my group ended up) working at cross purposes.

Oh, there I do agree! In my opinion, the simmering conflict between the various factions of the Imperium is one of the most important aspects of Wh40k, and a good deal of what makes the setting so grimdark. If only it is executed in a way that makes it clear it's all about "shades of grey" and not just righteous good-doer versus crazed villains. It's just not as simple as that.

I think Cultist-chan explains it best:

(I hope you know the original meme )

Naturally, given their relative absence from the majority of books, there are comparatively few examples of the Sisterhood - but ironically their only two books so far, Daemonifuge and Faith & Fire, each contain aspects. In Daemonifuge, not only do the Sisters of an entire Convent Pronatus turn on each other due to daemonic corruption, but the Order of Our Martyred Lady imprisons and ultimately sacrifices one of their own out of fear and political pragmatism, and in Faith & Fire a Sororitas Castigation Legion levels an entire city before it turns out that it's Baron's rebellion against the local Arch-Deacon was actually justified. Those PDF soldiers and Guardsmen who surrendered only to be burned alive by heavy flamers or chopped apart by two-handed chainsaws died for standing up against heresy, for defending what they thought was right. This is grimdark. This is 40k.

As for Crossfire, I might actually get that book. The Arbites are cool, too - and actually a frequent ally of the Sisterhood when it comes to purity control tests or putting down heretic cults in some underhive.

Lynata said:

The only possible response to that is...

WTF?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Okay, okay - it's a /tg/* variation of an image that depicts the common internet phenomenon of "trolling"; in this regard inciting a heated argument amongst members of an otherwise peaceful community by antagonization. Here is the original.

*: a sub-section of 4chan dealing with "traditional games" - Wh40k is one of its most common subjects and a lot of 40k-themed jokes and memes appeared there first. Including such officially endorsed ones as "DRIVE ME CLOSER" (which you can now hear in Dawn of War II when commanding a Commissar to enter a Chimaera) or the Vindicare Assassin LIIVI (whose name now appeared in "Ascension"). A word of warning: The last link includes images that are Not Safe For Work at the bottom.

Yeah- anyone remembers ORKQUISITOR?

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Orkquisitor#Orkquisitor

Oh boy, I had not seen that one yet.

The Ork Tech-Priest was awesome.

You should check out Orkterpise too

"Da red'unz dies fasta"