SpaceMarines are considered Hulking, but the Black Carapice takes away the enemies bonus to hit you. I can't believe people still are mentioning how Spacemarines are better, and not mentioning the Faith Talents. Now if you are just talking TT, then you are probably unaware that all sisters have access to faith talents now. And really for the TT that is how it originally broke down-SpaceMarines=Powerful individual units Imperial Guard= Super Armoured Vehicals/Artillary, and Sisters= Faith Talents, and exceptional special units.(Now I could be out of date since I have not played TT since 3rd ed, but that is how it seemed to break down for me.)

I think there needs to be more novels on the Sisters, it seems in the spacemarine books they are not depicted as well as they are in the TT codexes, and the opposite is true for the space marines, in the novels they seem to be a lot stronger then in the TT codexs.

Nimon said:

Unless rules have changed in the new Ecclesiarchy book that I don't have yet, Sisters do NOT all have access to Faith Talents. Only those with Fate Points do. Only PCs and a vanishing small number of NPCs have Fate Points. The average Sister does not have them.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Even in the TT not every SoB could use faith powers. It was group power. It took an entire squad to activate faith based abilities.

However, just having the Pure Faith talent in DH/RT gives you a set of special bonuses, fate points or not.

And some base abilities in TT were sister wide. But overall, the earthshattering Emperopr smashes the earth powers we derived from the pure faith and fanatical loyalty of 8 or so very pious ladies enraged in combat.

Nimon said:

That's rather interesting, considering that neither "Hulking" nor power armour have any negative effects on movement and agility as per the RAW (even though I do agree that it should).

This means that Marines are now harder to hit despite being exactly as mobile as a completely unarmoured character but 1 1/2 to 2 times their size. That said, I suppose you could argue that they have Unnatural Agility or something like that, but the system so far usually only used agility for dodging, not to give an inherent bonus to evasion. Meh.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Well Yeah, I am compairing PCs to PCs. Spacemarine NPCs do not have faith points either. Btw only Psykers have psyker abilities, oh and only sorcerors have sorcery.

Of course the system is not ideal in that it treats your character as the only one across the entire Imperium able to perform Acts of Faith. Miracles are rare, even inside the Sisterhood, but not that rare.

I suppose the Fate Points and Acts of Faith are another thing I'd like to see revisited in a 2nd Edition of the game, given that normal FPs kinda make a lot of Faith Powers from the "Mercy tree" useless, or at least only useful if the target character has already spent all his own FPs.

True, I would like to see just a revised set of 40k rules that fit across the board for DH,RT and DW. This would put to rest alot of the inconstancies between the three and the two companies.

Nimon said:

The obvious difference being that, like, NPC psykers do have psyker abilties.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Another Obvious difference being that faithful Npcs would have Faith talents. Are you seeing the connection yet?

Nimon said:

NPCs can have faith talents, in fact one of the NPCs in Frozen Reaches has faith talents and "fate" points to spend on them. But in general, to make use of faith powers you need fate points, which as a NPC generally means you also need the Touched by the Fates talent. Not unlikely, but still not a given.

Nimon said:

Yes I agree. Especially if the moved back to more of the BI ideas and style. While it wasnt perfect, some of the new rules from FFG are just wonky. DW needs to be hosed down, stripped out and rewrittin IMHO (that is purely my opinion, so please dont flame me for it). Also, what would have been best from teh start woudl have been a very simple matter of having RT characters start at an actual rank 5 in the books. All it would take is a paragraph stating that ramnks 1-4 are covered in their origin path.

Peacekeeper_b said:

They technically do start at Rank 5. Of course that is using the 'base' value for that, which is Dark Heresy.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Yes I agree on alot of those points, as far as DW goes I was liking it ok until RoB, I am sorry but that book was a waste of 50 bucks for me. The character creation was mundane, they only had one more founding chapter IF(was hoping Raven Guard, White Scars basicly was hoping they at least finish the main 9). I already have many rants going on in DW about how they watered down the chaplain.

Well anyways, back to sisters, When comparing a high level sister to a high level marine it seems they are balanced. I guess you could say the average run of the mill prior to achieving any faith talents sister npc is slightly less power on the battlefield then a marine, but another thing to consider is a sister's pull and understanding of the imperium at large, not to mention a higher access to lores and what not. They deffinatly bring something unique and helpfull to the table. The same could be said of and Adept, or a Scum character. If role played right I think all can be enjoyable and capable.

Braddoc said:

Yes, technically you are correct. But it goes a long way and changes the perspective it it would actually cover ranks 5-12 in Rogue trader and then yo have two side bars. Side Bar One stats that for a RT character the home world, some of the starting skills/talents and initial 500XP cover ranks 1-2 (a DH character with 500 XP is rank 2 after all), while the Origin Path and +5 to each characteristic cover ranks 3-4 and a starting RT character is considered rank 5.

Side Bar Two would cover how to use RT as a supplement with DH and applying the careers as Alternate career PATHS, not ranks. Meaning once you take your first rank in Rogue Trader, you stay on that path from then on and so forth.

Also, if they release revised editions I would want one psy system for all the games. I also want the last chapter in the new revised rule book be conversions for whatever came before that was now changed, or at least a simple system to convert them.

Peacekeeper_b said:

We were, I thought, comparing Sisters qua Sisters to Space Marines qua Space Marines in the fluff and published materials. Sisters qua Sisters in the fluff and published materials do not normally have faith powers to compensate and therefore are vastly inferior to Marines, whom they do not match in either skill or physical ability.

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Quite true, and that's how it should be! They shouldn't be worlds apart either, though. The Sisters of Battle are the ones called in to hunt down renegade Marine Chapters (in fact this was their very primary purpose when they first appeared in the original Rogue Trader); they would be utterly unsuitable for this task if they would not generally be able to stand up to them.

From how I always understood the fluff (and the TT rules) it goes like:

Marines: 1/3 weapons, 1/3 armour*, 1/3 superhuman traits
Sisters: 2/6 weapons, 2/6 armour*, 1/6 faith**, 1/6 numbers***

*: excluding the unique gadgets of the Astartes variant such as advanced life-support etc which may give the Marines an edge in battle under certain circumstances
**: not (only) miracles but fanatism and zealotry affecting their determination and making them perfectly willing to disregard their own lives (which is admittedly also a rather circumstancial effect as it can lead to great acts of martyrdom (such as a single Sister taking out an entire Dark Eldar raiding force with a grenade in the fluff) just as easily as it can lead to needlessly suicidal behavior)
***: potentially including allied Imperial Guard or Frateris Militia, but in this context referring mainly to fielding slightly more Sisters than Marines

Just my take on it, of course, though I am able to reinforce these points with sources.

The only problem with arguing the Sisters of Battle as they originally appeared is that they changed, big time. The whole universe has changed. Their fluff and purpose no longer have anything to do with hunting renegade Marine Chapters.

Heck, going by original Rogue Trader, the Marines were basically just humans, not super humans.

Dulahan said:

Their newest codex (3rd Edition, heh :/) and the Inquisition Illustrated Guide still mention them doing this, though - if only in their function as the Ordo Hereticus' Chamber Militant.

Yet even if these sources wouldn't say this, isn't old fluff still valid as long as it doesn't get contradicted? Or is it really that an old source is completely invalid as soon as a newer version is released, even if the latter just isn't as comprehensive? I admit I'm a little unsure if there has ever been an official or semi-official communication regarding this. I'm usually (regardless of the franchise) operating under the assumption that anything official is valid until contradicted by something more recent, so if 40k deals with this differently (which might be possible, given that the game runs in editions) I may have to adapt!

I also don't suppose there is a list of retcons GW did, is there...?

Lynata said:

True enough, but while the Adepta Sororitas have essentially stayed where they were in terms of power, the Astartes got more powerful over the years (to be fair, most of that change actually occured during Rogue Trader, long before the Sisters of Battle were fleshed out properly). Even then, just because they can engage in such actions doesn't mean it's a fair fight - I imagine that, in order to ensure that nothing is left to chance, the Astartes would be significantly outnumbered in such a situation, requiring several Preceptories worth of Sisters Militant to provide the force needed to reliably annihilate a thousand Astartes. Even then, I can't imagine that such battles are anything less than absolutely brutal, with heavy casualties suffered for the Sisters in the process.

Beyond that, the Sororitas aren't the only ones called in to purge wayward Astartes Chapters... more than a few other Astartes Chapters have served the same role over the millennia, including but not limited to the Space Wolves and the Crimson Fists.

The way the background has changed over the years means that the Adepta Sororitas have a much more clearly defined place in the setting, and while they may well be called up to stop errant Astartes Chapters, they are not the only ones to be called to perform that task, nor is it their primary role.

At this point lets ask some very basic questions.

In the TT, could the Sisters of Battle beat a SpaceMarine army? Yes.

In the DoW Soulstorm Game, could the Sisters beat the Marines there? Yes.

In DW, if you introduce a Palatine to a campaign, will she hold her own? From what I have seen Yes.

If anyone wants to challenge this and lives in Colorado, USA area I will challenge you to any of the above mentioned scenarios.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I actually think that - if we're just talking 2nd to 5th Edition (I know very little of the original Rogue Trader, only having pulled the occasional snippets of fluff from the internets) - it is the Sisters who got weaker (and DH sadly seems to fit into this development) whilst the Marines stayed roughly the same in terms of technical background, but were hyped beyond reason in what they are able to achieve (especially the Space Wolves) in some novels and stories to make them look "more awesome" (which also seems to fit to DW). In a way you could of course argue that the stories have a direct affect on the technical background as well, at least when it comes to personalities and actual displays of tactical genius or combat capability...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Their place was already very defined just with a single paragraph in the original Rogue Trader, it was just "shifted" around because GW either didn't think it right that their primary moneymaker could actually be truly challenged by another non-Marine force or because they didn't know what to do with them - probably a mixture of both.

It's a tricky situation as I see myself caught between this faction's heroic past and the current relegation to "whipping girls" / bodycount, but I am quite sure that Astartes-players would react in a similar manner would the Marines get "nerfed" this heavily. That said, let's see what the future brings. There have been a few interesting rumors regarding 5th Ed., and as we all know hope dies last. Several upcoming Black Library releases at least point towards an extremely good year for the Sisterhood in terms of books.

Nimon, it's a shame i don't live any where near you, and haven't finished assembling my Space Wolf army, i would be happy to give that game a go. I have faced SoB's on TT many times with CSM although different in build mostly the same in stats and at 1500 pts never lost a game. But it has always been an Interesting game with heavy casualites of both sides. Sadly with no new inquistion book for the TT due anytime soon, i'm afraid that new SM especially the ones with their own chapter book would win more times than not as the rules for the last Witch hunters codex are now very very broken.

I think though it may be time to end the discussion on who wins.

For game sake discuss it with the GM about equipment and house rule it, that's simple.

As for another edition I did read somewhere that FFG where stopping DH in July, not sure how true it was though. I bloody well hope not, just started collecting the books a couple of months ago.

If they do, do another edition it would probbably best to take White Wolf's approach and do a core book the sets the universe up with creation rules for "everyday joe's" then have DH, RT, and DW all with the own books that use the core system and setting with additional charcter gen rules, this does balance the systems. Unfortunately I can still forsee if they were to do that that SoB's would still probably get the short end of the stick.

Ya, I would like to see a new edition SoB codex. I like seeing witch hunters on the cover of the new DoW2 game though, looks like their popularity is on the rise.

Nimon said:

If only it would include the Ordo Hereticus' Chamber Militant... I do agree that the Imperial Guard was a must-have before the Sisterhood, but by bringing in the Inquisition they might have as well done it right. I don't really expect the Sisterhood making an appearance in DoWII anymore (there'd be other more popular armies in line first, and they can only do so many expansions), but at least they had one good game with DoWI.

But 2011 will be a good year for the Sororitas either way, even if they don't return to the computer screens. The much-awaited sequel to Faith & Fire, called "Hammer & Anvil" and again written by James Swallow, is due to release in December. In addition to this, the audio drama "Red & Black" is in recording right now, and will supposedly serve as a prequel to Faith & Fire. BL already posted some cover art for both titles on their blog:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Hammer-and-Anvil.html

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/Red-and-black-cover-art.html

My pleas have been answered. Finally some new fluff. Faith Unfailing!

Makes you wonder if this is connected to the Sisters' appearance in the Dark Heresy games. Given how little people knew about the Sororitas, it almost feels as if they are discovered just now, and apparently found interesting enough to warrant further products in three separate media (P&P, novels, audiobooks).