Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

In Blood of the Martyred they have changed some things. You are probably right about the original TT requiring a FaithFul character, but in blood of the martyr, and I think in IH too, the sisters get Pure Faith which is the start and prereq to other faith talents. Once Ascended, a Palatine can easily have 7 fate points, and there are some new talents that make some faith talents free, and again some others that allow a used fate point to be replenished, so an ascended Sister will deffinatly be bringing something unique to the table. There is access to these faith talents for others as well, though I think the Sisters have the greatest access.

Ok, so you dont like the hand allusion, how about Astartes are the Favored Sons(A Motto The Ultramarines Favor) and the Sororitas are the Favored Daughters(Their Old title was Daughters of the Emperor, later became Brides of the Emperor).

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Blood of Martyrs kinda screwed that up.

Supposedly, "Faith as a manifest power is an ability that only the most dedicated of the Emperor's servants will ever see, let alone command", yet it's now available to Assassins, Clerics and Arbitrators from rank 1 under the new alternate starting ranks. It creates this weird dichotomy where those who can manifest the powers of faith are supposed to be rare, yet the forces of the Ecclesiarchy seem to be full of them. This is especially true of the Sororitas, where even the non-militant orders seem to solely recruit those who can perform minor miracles at will.

Admittedly this is entirely optional and only the Battle Sister has to take faith talents.

Nimon said:

An arrangement I'd gladly agree to.

I'd far rather take ten 2d10+10 pen 6 shots, that can cause righteous fury, than inflict up to ten hits of 1(or 2) d10 damage and be left unconscious.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You say it is impossible, but this is what has been established in the official fluff. It's present both in the Codex as well as in the Inquisition book ( http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/Inquisition-The.html ). As far as the different designs of Astartes armour are concerned I would think that the fluff was referring to the designs in use at the time. A problem I can see here is that the MkVIII was shoved into the setting retroactively as part of the "reworked" Marines design for the newest edition of the game, so I think the comment actually only refers to MKVI and VII. If there would be a difference between the two (which, according to your comment, this does not seem to be the case) it would likely be the average. And I can see a difference of 1AP explained/excused with the aforementioned layer of additional subsystems below the actual armour plating.

As for the size<->protection, you pretty much negated yourself. The suit is bigger because its wearer is larger, not because it offers more armour. Well, that and the hundred or so nifty gadgets it has built-in and that require space between the plating and the wearer: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/6/63/Mk6corvuscompositiom.JPG

But as I said, my gripe isn't so much with the armour (I merely noticed that FFG glossed over this issue by quietly changing the description on the vestment page in BoM), it's with the weapons.

Though AP11 for MkVIII seems pretty overpowered in comparison to the AP9 of the other models. Wow. I could understand a difference of 1AP, but 2? Oh well.

Dr. Schadenfreude said:

That is, IMO, a non-argument, built upon a faulty premise. Availability to Player Characters has absolutely nothing to do with availability to the general populace of NPCs; the career paths and alternate ranks, etc, are created specifically for the purpose of creating and developing player characters, and consequently has no bearing whatsoever on the abilities any given hypothetical NPC may have.

A Rank 1 Dark Heresy character is not one of the near-infinite masses of humanity, but a step above - demonstrated in no small part by the fact they have Fate Points (remembering that it doesn't matter how many Faith Talents you have if you don't have any Fate Points to activate them with; a Faith talent is essentially worthless without Fate Points). Their abilities - or even the wider array of potential abilities available to them - should not be taken as an indication as to what is available or commonplace for the faceless hordes of NPCs that make up the overwhelming majority of the Imperium.

Dr. Schadenfreude said:

Think you miss read the power, everything with in 10mxWpB takes 1d10+1 for every corruption point, psykers another 1d10, daemons yet another pen immaterial for the power since can not be reduced by toughness or armour. You could always spend a faith point to reduce the fatigue damage(specially if you used this power with tests of fate so it cost you nothing). Not to mention daemons have to make a WP test or lose connection to thier sorcery. Though if you were using the DW horde rules, all the damage would be immaterial all those in the 10mxWpB of the sister would die and reduce the horde's magnatude.(if there was even any left). This is simular(though alot more potent) to the Psyker Power Void Storm in DW.

Lynata said:

Continually shoving the same two sources down our collective throats time and time again results in nothing but frustration for all involved. The "but source X says Y, and to hell with anything else" approach is a waste of everyone's time.

Lynata said:

Actually, images of the Mark 8 design have existed since the mid 90s (2nd edition 40k), as has background and models to accompany it, pre-dating the original Codex: Sisters of Battle by several years. It's only now that we have a source that provides rules for the disparate marks to quantify the distinctions, but it's long been established in the background that different marks of Astartes power armour provide differing amounts of protection (that was, for example, the entire point of the difference between Mark 2 and Mark 3 - the latter was built to provide heavy armour to the front in situations such as boarding actions).

Lynata said:

Because Throne forfend that a suit of armour that resembles a corset, leggings and high-heeled boots might actually be less protective than the far-bulkier-seeming plate of the Astartes.

I've just checked the actual text from your apparently unimpeachable source... the terminology used there, frankly, is non-specific. "The same degree of armoured protection" does not seem, to me, to be an absolute and binding statement saying that Sororitas power armour must be exactly as protective as Astartes Power Armour (as already noted, no Mark is specified as a point of comparison, further miring it in vagueness) regardless of the differences in structure, composition and other matters of construction.

Sororitas Power Armour provides protection in the same range as that provided by the seven relevant disparate marks of power armour (ignoring Mk1, and the weak rear of Mk3, that range is 7-11, with lower values more common than higher ones), and for me, that's entirely sufficient. It isn't as good as the absolute best protection that the finest and most advanced suits of Astartes armour can provide by any means (mainly because those high armour values are achieved through adding even more armour and reinforcement to the chest and abdomen)

Lynata said:

I didn't say size, I said mass - slight difference, but significant to context. Astartes Power Armour masses between 170 and 225 kilos as standard... given that the Astartes aren't actually that much bigger than normal humans unarmoured (they're "Hulking" size in-game due to their armour; they're taller and broader than, and slightly differently proportioned to, large adult males but the biggest differences are in terms of physiological composition rather than bulk), something must be contributing to the fact that it weighs 3-4 times as much as the Ignatus-pattern Power Armour in Ascension (which provides roughly comparable protection, strength boosting, size increase) and has a similar (though not quite as extensive) array of secondary systems (such as life support).

Lynata said:

I've got my own issues with weapon damage values anyway, that are a completely different matter to this frankly tired argument, and which I'm not going to get into here.

This is the last I'll say on the matter - personally, the thought of a recurrence of the old "Sororitas vs Astartes equipment" screaming match makes my stomach turn, and I honestly don't have the time for it anyway.

Nimon said:

On re-reading the Horde rules, it seems that I've somehow managed to completely misunderstand them from my first reading and never noticed my mistake until now. Somehow, I'd got it into my head that hordes took one point of magnitude damage for every ten points of damage inflicted by an attack. I genuinely have no clue where I got that from.

Still, my interpretation was that:

Using RAW, Daemons do not actually have corruption points. While that's obviously something you'd want a house rule to address, it means that Soul Storm only does the base 1d10 damage to Daemons. likewise, Daemonettes do not have any "powers" they can be disconnected from, unless you choose to rule that the power somehow prevents them from assuming alluring forms.

I made the decision to classify Soul Storm as a psychic power, as that is what it most closely resembles. What that means is that, being an area-effect ability, it would inflict 1d10xPsy rating hits to all hordes in the blast radius. As the character utilising the ability wouldn't have a Psy rating, I assumed that the power could only inflict 1d10 hits on a horde. Again, that would probably want some house-ruling to clarify.

So in my, very wrong, understanding: Soul Storm couldn't cause all that much damage to a horde, while a heavy bolter could potentially liquify it in a single burst.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Yeah, you're right. I really did approach this one in the wrong way.

Continually shoving the same two sources down our collective throats time and time again results in nothing but frustration for all involved. The "but source X says Y, and to hell with anything else" approach is a waste of everyone's time.

I suppose that's true in cases where people only adhere to the fluff when it suits their own perception of the setting. Don't chastise me for pointing out the inconsistencies, though.

Actually, images of the Mark 8 design have existed since the mid 90s (2nd edition 40k), as has background and models to accompany it, pre-dating the original Codex: Sisters of Battle by several years. It's only now that we have a source that provides rules for the disparate marks to quantify the distinctions, but it's long been established in the background that different marks of Astartes power armour provide differing amounts of protection (that was, for example, the entire point of the difference between Mark 2 and Mark 3 - the latter was built to provide heavy armour to the front in situations such as boarding actions).

Ah, that about the MkVIII is new to me, then. I haven't seen nor read about it before (and I do have the 3rd Ed. Marine Codex). I actually also took it for granted that their protection varied in details, I just didn't expect a variance of 2 AP as that's a pretty big number in this game, and somewhat hard to explain when you think that all that MkVIII did was cover up some cables and add a neckpiece. It's worth noting that such variances exist in Sororitas armour, too, though, only on a more individual level and not due to different production models.

Because Throne forfend that a suit of armour that resembles a corset, leggings and high-heeled boots might actually be less protective than the far-bulkier-seeming plate of the Astartes.

And here we get to the crux of the issue. False perception. If you'd look at some of the official pictures you'd notice that:
- there actually are armour plates below the corset (which just is an additional layer of protection)
- the corset is modular and can be exchanged for a placcard for even better protection
- the "leggings" are hard plates, sometimes with several layers (depending on the model)
- high heels only existed in some very early artworks and were phased out long ago, and never appeared on the models themselves

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs12/i/2006/316/4/3/Sisters_of_battle_by_andreauderzo.jpg

I've just checked the actual text from your apparently unimpeachable source... the terminology used there, frankly, is non-specific. "The same degree of armoured protection" does not seem, to me, to be an absolute and binding statement saying that Sororitas power armour must be exactly as protective as Astartes Power Armour (as already noted, no Mark is specified as a point of comparison, further miring it in vagueness) regardless of the differences in structure, composition and other matters of construction.

Sororitas Power Armour provides protection in the same range as that provided by the seven relevant disparate marks of power armour (ignoring Mk1, and the weak rear of Mk3, that range is 7-11, with lower values more common than higher ones), and for me, that's entirely sufficient. It isn't as good as the absolute best protection that the finest and most advanced suits of Astartes armour can provide by any means (mainly because those high armour values are achieved through adding even more armour and reinforcement to the chest and abdomen)

Yes, it does not have to be -exactly- as protective, but it should be **** close (depending on what the system allows), and from what I've seen this is not really the case. Even by your listing it's the lower end of the scale. What kind of Astartes armour provides 7 AP? Is it still in use? What exactly is the most common Mark/AP? And does Marine armour have the same amount of AP on all locations, or is it like with the Sororitas variant where the arms, legs and helmet have 1 point less?

Also, what do you mean with "apparently unimpeachable" - do you discredit the validity of this product, or was that merely snarky polemics?

I didn't say size, I said mass - slight difference, but significant to context. Astartes Power Armour masses between 170 and 225 kilos as standard... given that the Astartes aren't actually that much bigger than normal humans unarmoured (they're "Hulking" size in-game due to their armour; they're taller and broader than, and slightly differently proportioned to, large adult males but the biggest differences are in terms of physiological composition rather than bulk), something must be contributing to the fact that it weighs 3-4 times as much as the Ignatus-pattern Power Armour in Ascension (which provides roughly comparable protection, strength boosting, size increase) and has a similar (though not quite as extensive) array of secondary systems (such as life support).

Well, they're only slightly higher, but - from what I've seen - about twice as broad as normal humans. Those extra organs and extra ribs and especially the muscles do take a lot of room. As far as the secondary systems are concerned, though, I cannot agree in the slightest. Just look at the cross section image and count the myriad of subsystems there. And note that the actual plating is rather thin in comparison to the machinery below. I also think the strength boosting isn't really comparable when it is 50% off (the Astartes model does give +30, doesn't it?).

But to be fair, I also think the Angel-pattern armour in BoM is too light in terms of weight. As it stands, what was supposed to provide "the same degree of armoured protection" as Astartes power armour now is weaker than what you can buy as a civilian. Yes, yes, I know it's nitpicking, it just feels wrong. But as I said, I don't truly mind the armour. The boltguns are where it's at.

And sorry for dragging out this argument, but I simply felt the need to respond to some of these points raised. Even if, as you rightly pointed out, this is frustrating for everyone involved.

Also, IF you do respond again ... how in the Emperor's name did you manage to get the quotes right? I fail at this every time.

Ya I do not like the quotes function on this forum either. Arguement is good for learning on both sides I think. On the thing about soul storm, it does 1d10 base damage, then 1d10 more Energy to daemons. And if you house ruled possible corruption then 1 point per in addition. Daemonetts probably would not have much in the way of sorcery so much, but dark powers/abilites is also a possible grey area depending. Basicly though Soul Storm packs a heavy punch. Do not get me wrong, you can not rely on Faith Talents alone, but she does duel wield Seraphim Inferno Pistols and when fired simultanious we are talking some serious damage.

Lynata said:

Also, IF you do respond again ... how in the Emperor's name did you manage to get the quotes right? I fail at this every time.

I had considered reposting in response to your post, now that I've gotten some sleep and am thinking more reasonably... but it's better to just leave things on that matter. The quotes, however, are a distinct matter...

I get the quotes right because I know the rites and rituals needed to appease the spirits of this forum. Insufficient observation of the correct rituals is cause for penance; recitation of verses 00000001, 00010010 and 01001011 of the 00111110th Canticle of Atonement should be sufficient.

The correct rites are as follows:at all times and in all cases, is the instruction to quote to be represented in upper-case letters. Lower case is regarded as demeaning and offensive to this machine, suitable only for discourse between beings of flesh. At all times, when commencing a quote, reference thine source; the value efidm=, followed by a number is the reference, appearing at the top of the window when you commence your post. Use the same number for all references to a single post. Close the instruction with , once more all in capital letters rather than as depicted here.

(Or, in less Mechanicus-like terms: at the top of each post, when you attempt to quote a message, appears the text [ quote efidm= ] with a string of numbers after the =. This text, duplicated exactly, should open every quote, and the term quote should always be in capitals otherwise the system doesn't recognise it. In all cases in this post, save for the first, I've written

in lower case to avoid confusing the system)

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Testing ...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Nimon said:

That's something I'd like to get some clarification/general consensus on:

The power does 1d10 damage to "Psykers and anyone with corruption points", neither of which applies to some Daemons by default. I realise, again, that it's an obvious house rule that Daemons count as having corruption points, but it reads to me like the section on Daemons would have addressed this if they thought it needed to - as odd as that seems.

The other odd choice of wording is how they make it very apparent that Psykers suffer "additional" damage, while the section on Daemons uses far less emphatic language. The fact that it starts with "Also" leaves it very ambiguous as to whether this it means: "also ... this power causes X additional damage to Daemons" or "also ... this is the effect this power has on Daemons".

Another separate issue I've always wondered about this power is can it cause friendly fire?

I realise it's a big, dramatic thing to do - almost akin to a heroic sacrifice - but it seems odd they put in a power very capable of fragging your teammates if they're within 30/40 meters of you. Not only do you render yourself unconscious, unless you spend another fate point in preparation, but you also need to put yourself a considerable distance from support to use the power safely.

Dr. Schadenfreude said:

Lynata said:

Wouldn't said Assassin also suffer the base 1d10 damage, ignoring armour and toughness, because they had corruption points?

Dr. Schadenfreude said:

Ouch! You're right, I misread that. Well, in that case ... be careful where you trigger it. >;}

Though I admit it sounds a little excessive. It would have probably been nicer if people with just "a little corruption" would also just "burn a little" instead of being boiled alive. The way it is written now, the difference between slightly tainted and heavily corrupted seems smaller than between slightly tainted and pure. Quite ... merciless.

In fact, it seems a bit weird that a demon(!) would suffer less damage than my assassin. D:

Except when you'd houserule that demons also have corruption points, that is. This interpretation is not without reason, I suppose.

Another little question here:

Does the fact that Soul Storm "will affect everything" within its radius mean that it can kill/injure the user?

It really does seem to be one of those things that needs a fair bit of errata-ing.

Dr. Schadenfreude said:

Not sure where it is in BoM, or if it is even come up in it, but in IH you can not use Faith Talents if you have 10 or more corruption points, basicly meaning you are one of the "Faithful". I would take this to mean it would not damage you(other then the fatigue damage you are already recieving). Would seem odd that the Emperor would punish his faithful.

On the question of damage, you are right the wording is a bit ambigious, it is possible that it is just 1d10 for daemons(not counting possible corruption points) the way they worded it there, but here is the thing, that would mean heretic psykers would suffer more damage then a daemon in this holy storm? I think daemons should be even more affected by such an attack. Maybe we should make a seperate thread on this, I feel like I have hijacked this thread on this one subject.

This is why I never post on forums. I have an astonishing talent for going off on tangents.

Lynata said:

I'm not interested in getting into the argument, but I would just like to point out that you're talking about one of the oldest, most plagiarized (and plagiarizing) sci-fi settings in existence.

There is so much ret-conning, lore additions, novels, codexes, table tops and art work in existence, that trying to wring consistency from the WH40K universe is an exercise in futility and frustration.

The best thing you can do is establish some kind of "local" consistency, by deciding in your games what is appropriate and what is not. In this case, if the SoB is playing with DW marines, her weaponry and gear should scale in accordance with the Marines'. Anything else would make for an extremely anemic character.

If the Sororitas is in a DH game, their stats should scale along with the rest of the group, as anything else would be INSANELY overpowered. While I don't really like what FFG did with DW, the systems are not directly compatible and should not be treated as such.

This sort of thing should be resolved by the GM when his or her player first expresses interest in playing a Sororitas character in whatever game he's running. That's part of the magic of RPGs in that you have an adjudicator to talk these things over with. Common sense should be the rule of thumb for this kind of thing.

But fluff should never be used to determine game balance...especially not 40 year old, internally inconsistent fluff that's been built by literally hundreds of contributors over the years.

About the weapons:

For DW the Bolter has been adapted to make it a decent weapon for fighting fellow Space Marines. The traditional D10+5 Bolter won't just do for fighting other Space Marines. They needed to be better to make sense. Thus the 2D10+5 Bolters from DW.

Now why don't the SoB don't have such great weapons?
Firstly because they are designed for DH not DW. D10+5 is the standard Bolter for DH.

Secondly: Even with power armor, the SoB is a normal human. She just can't hold Astartes Sized weaponry. Simply because she is lacking Bulk, strength and the Skeletal structure of a Space Marine who has S and T of above natural human levels. Their bodies can witstand the enormous recoil of their guns where a normal human would break every bone in his body to try such a feat. It makes sense that their weapons are a bit nastier then the ones the SoB can use.

That said, I am all for giving a SoB in a DW game a bolter that does more damage then described in the DH books becase of the original reason why SM bolters had to be so much better.

Bladehate said:

I suppose that's true - sadly, for I did hope that DH, RT and DW would be compatible with each other. Maybe it was a misunderstanding, but I vaguely recall the developers having had this intention. Oh well.

As for consistency, of course you're touching on a true issue there, though in this particular aspect there have never been any changes so far. I suppose I may over-react because I perceived some sort of need to defend one of my favorite factions that has taken a lot of flak - especially from some players of the Astartes-community who felt the awesomeness of their favorite faction threatened - since its inception in the original Rogue Trader in the eighties.

That said, there may indeed be a gradual retcon going on by GW, for it seems hard to deny that the Sisters of Battle have been pushed down more and more with each edition. An interesting thread I've stumbled across recently basically sums it up: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76961

Sister Callidia said:

I guess you're right. I've just had an interesting chat with a certain person that pointed to Unnatural Toughness as the main issue. The way "Unnatural" traits work pretty much broke the entire system, and the writers at that point had no other choice than to "up" the damage. Flat multiplicators are never a good idea, but it's too late now. Maybe it will look different if DH, RT and DW ever get a 2nd edition in a couple years.

Sister Callidia said:

Well, Astartes weaponry is larger because it's made to be that way and because it is armoured for more durability in battle. If you'd take a normal boltgun into a battle as fierce as what the Marines do in their daily work - like running through walls and stuff - the weapon would likely break or at least jam fairly quickly.

There shouldn't be any major difference in damage, though. They both fire .75cal bolts, so their weapons have the same barrel size. Boltguns are also hybrid-gyrojet weapons whose projectiles have a rocket motor; an ordinary suit of power armour is sufficient to compensate for the recoil (in fact, the Munitorum Manual states that very muscular humans may be capable to endure it without aid), and a stronger recoil doesn't make for more damage - if at all, it would just give the bolt (which detonates a millisecond after impact on all models) a higher penetration value, it wouldn't cause a larger explosion.

And lastly, the Mars-Beta boltgun has been issued to both the Astartes and the Sororitas, so there has to be some kind of intercompatibility.

I also recall both the Angelus-bolt from IH with its 2d10, which resulted in roughly the same average damage as normal boltguns. It really just seems to be an incompatibility between the systems themselves. :/

Sister Callidia said:

Ya I am running a DW game and I only have done one session where we added a Seraphim/Palatine to the mix. I will have to do a mock battle with her using her bolter(she used inferno pistols and faith talents mostly last session). I think the 2d10 Idea might not be bad when you consider the Proven talent migh mitigate some of the damage variation, but I will stick to the way it is in BoM for the first few encounters.

Lynata said:

I really hope we don't have to wait that long, but I'm afraid we probably will have to, if we ever get a 2nd Edition at all.

DH is really showing its age, and the fact that it was designed by BI rather then FFG who have a slightly different design philosophy.

I would personally love it if they did a revision of the system, and then published guidelines for conversion (especially for DW) so that the supplements could still be useful but overall balance be maintained. The power creep in RT and especially in DW does not appeal to me. Personally I feel that a revision would do best as a more free-form system, where talents and skills would build off of each other rather then classes. For example, I always found it very strange that you pick a class...errr...I of course meant career...and then stayed with that class. I could understand it if you weren't in the service of the Inquisition, but such service really should open up character options more then some arbitrary class picked at character generation.

More on topic though, I don't really have a faction preference in WH40K since I was never much more then a spectator when it came to the wargame (never had the time or money to really collect armies when I was younger), although the Tyranids and the Necrons appeal to me the most. As I said though, an SoB should be a strong, fully combat capable character in whatever game they play in. Functionally, what should set them apart would be their Faith Powers (as opposed to the Unnatural characteristics of SMs) but their gear and equipment should be comparable to whatever is available to the rest of the group.

I think as I said before that it's just about scaling for the different games, but what ever works for your group. Some posted above somewhere that Space Marines are "hulking" in their armour, this is incorrect, they would be if it wasn't for their Black Carapace that interfaces directly into the armour allowing them to move it much more easily, and therefore still be a pain to hit. I'm unsure if the Sister's version has something similar for them, but the armour on the models was definately more sleek but did provide the same save. As for the size of a space marine that has changed over the course of 40K, when I started TT 10 years ago, a Marine was described as being over 9ft tall and built like the proverbal outhouse, then with the armour on top made them truely monstrous, but times have changed and Codex Pictures has shown most of us what a marine looks like, how they move, and what Ultramarines sound like, british for the most part. I understand completely that you want the arms and armour the same, especially as some versions have been used at the same time.

As for Roleplaying any character in DH/RT/DW, most will fall into a "cookie cutter" set of skills and talents, this allows FFG to release more books and therefore make more money by adding variety.

IMO induvidually a sister is not as good, powerful, potent or skilled as a battle brother (no I'm not a SM player, i'm a tyranid player you imperial sort all die the same). Fact of the matter is there are only a handful of marines out there, 100,000 marines across the galaxy approx. There is probably 100000 times that of sisters. Marines get the best arms and armour because of their links to the Machine Cult, some get better and more than others. Sisters did used to get some unquie things for the TT that haven't carried over, vehicles mainly. Sisters bridge the gap between Imperial Guard and Space Marines. While equipped better than the Imperial Guard and mostly on par with Space Marines, they lack the enhancements that allow them to use all the equipement to it's fullest. This is replaced with moments of ultimate power through faith, brief flashes on a sea of darkness.

Adding a little extra fuel to the fire Grey Knights, we have the Hereticus Militant - Sister of Battle, Xenos Militant - Deathwatch, and although it'll be more Marines Maellus Militant - Grey knights, this does interest me, as they are yet more powerful than Deathwatch with all of them trained pyskers, and equipped in even better gear.

Bladehate said:

That's how it was always explained in the fluff, yeah (well, minus all the hundred-or-so additional gadgets that the Marines have included in their suits).

Valdek said:

Aren't they Hulking in DW? Keep in mind that Hulking actually increases basic movement, not decreases it. In terms of aiming, it really just says the target is larger so it's easier to hit. Movement is dealt with by other factors. The Ignatus power armour from Ascension even adds a further +1 to basic movement (on top of what he gets by being Hulking), yet shots taken at one still benefit from a +10 bonus.

Valdek said:

In the Dark Heresy RAW? No, it's Hulking as well, like all power armour in DH. Its description in BoM mentions "little to no reduction in movement speed and agility" though, which conforms with what we know from some of the stunts Sororitas characters have pulled so far (such as Sister Miriya roundhouse-kicking a heretic's jaw out of his face in F&F) as well as what seems to be necessary for the kind of combat Seraphim are employed in.

Basically, in DH, Sororitas power armour = Light Power Armour with -10 Strength and +1 AP to chest.

Also, here's some old fluff (WD article, 2nd Ed. 40k) about it:

The Angel armour is similar in concept and armoured protection to the suits worn by the Adeptus Astartes, but differs in its control mechanisms. While Space Marines are hard-wired into their suits, which in essence become an extension of their bodies, Angel armour is controlled by a system of negative feedback, using pressure sensors on the inner surface of the armour to detect the slightest movement from the occupant, and move the suit accordingly. In practical terms this means that a suit of Angel armour can be worn by an unmodified human, though some amount of calibration is required to customise each suit to its wearer's body. It also means that the Sisterhood is not reliant on Mechanicus-supplied bio-engineering systems, the only possible replacement for the Space Marine 'Black Carapace' implant, though it is rumoured that Ecclesiarch Vandire's reasons for rejecting this option were more to do with aesthetics than practicality.

Valdek said:

Hmm, can't say I noticed the same - I actually remember the Marine in the 5th Ed. rulebook being larger/bulkier than what I had seen before, though of course this might have been an exception. There's always a certain amount of "artistic freedom" and thus inconsistency between images; for what it's worth, the Sisters suffer the same when it comes to their armour, ranging from what looks like 5mm cardboard (2nd Ed codex cover) to multiple layers of plating 5 centimeters thick (4th Ed codex or DoW Soulstorm cover).

Valdek said:

About 30.000 Battle Sisters (10.000 of whom being in the 6 Orders Maioris, the others scattered throughout the Imperium in an unknown score of Orders Minoris of usually ~100 - 1.000), at least this was the number during 2nd Edition. With the gradual decline of the Sororitas' strengths in the martial sector it is likely that this number has been or will be retconned to something more along what you theorized, though. We'll probably only ever know if GW decides to, after a decade of neglect, release a new Codex for this army. If they actually do it and not just shoehorn all the Inquisitorial forces into a single numbercrunch book as some people fear.

Yes, it stings ...

Note that I do agree with your assessment that Sisters are not as good/powerful/potent/skilled as Astartes, though. They are only human, after all (which is one of the factors for why I've grown a liking for them - my other favorite is the Imperial Guard). I'm just clinging to the idea that their wargear was on a comparable scale - it had to be, for they were (amongst other things) used to hunt down renegade Chapters, and the treaties that Vandire and Thor worked out with the Mechanicus still stand.

That said, I suppose in a way we actually are in agreement in that the differences between DH and DW are not an accurate representation. As I admitted a few posts earlier, I may have just overreacted when I heard of those numbers.