hello all well this is my second post and i hope you enjoy it

as a battle sister fan and a battle sister 40k army player and dark heresy character player, im finding the greatest problem that the sisterhood faces is ignorance

1. there seems too almost be this disturbing thing going on that people cannot accept that the battle sisters are as good as there battle brothers haveing divine faith powers over genetic enhancements

2. the sisters role and position i have tons of arguments and debates with both dark heresy gms i know for a few reasons 1. they cannot grasp that the marines in death watch arent normal marines they are space marines of exceptional skill taken for such in short they would be the old 40k space marine option of hero, hence why a palantine is meant too be there equal, because sisters had most dear option living saint, then canoness, then palantine, just like marines have chapter master, captain, then hero, the marines in deathwatch are hero lvl battle brothers

but the main argument that occurs is the role of the sisters the orders militant of the sisterhood are noted in "codex witchunters page 11" as i quote "thee chamber militant of the ordo hereticus" "purity sweeps threw imperial organisation's persecuting apostate clerics challenging renegade space marine chapters, acting as wardens on the black ships, and guarding the ordos most dangerous prisoners" they are also listed as the chamber militant of the ecclesiarchy or as its other wise known the adeptus ministorum with the following duties as detailed in the same section "guarding holy sites, escorting hiearchs, ensuring citizens fill coffers at collection time, when the ecclesiarchy declares a war of faith it is the exclusively female adepta sororitas that provide the standing fighting forces"

(note im not even getting into the extensive duties of the other sisters)

im finding the constant explaining of what adepta sororita do and that they are so equal in ability too there battle brothers too the point they take down renegade marines frustrating at best,

my one disapointment in FFG was at last in blood of the martyrs we finally got sororita power armour rules, but sadly the way theyve done the armour and the godwyn bolter has feed into this space marine supremacy complex

example in page 19 of codex witchhunters sororitas power armour is described as being exactly like the marine version bar not haveing a black carapace and not having the same level of strength augmenting, but yet sororita armour in BOTM is described as light power armour bar the chest for no reason when the books else wise say its as good as marine power armour, 2ndly the core heresy book power armour has +20 str the battle sisters is better haveing only +10 but +5bs and a breather and bracers and com link etc, but are we then too believe that the power armour in core heresy is marine power armour and that the subject mystically gains the black carapace with its +20 str augmenting

in my opionion the battle sister armour in BOTM is well done and utterly accurate having the breather and com link and targeter as you'd expect in military issue armour and not haveing the black carapace thus only +10 str, but theres no reason it isnt 8 all round in fact it should be when in every book its detailed as marine lvl power armour bar the lack of the black carapace 2ndly however this also begs the question on buyable armour in the book surely then it should be +10 not 20 str as its not carapaced either unless its a marine wearing it

also the godwyn bolter once again in codex witch hunters and all other books etc as being i quote "superior performance in comparison of other weapons of its class" in other words it is described just like the astartes bolter as being a better superior bolter, so why in FFG is it detailed as lesser than a marines bolter better than a basic one, as theres no reason for this it doesn't say such in fact it says the sororitas bolter just like the astartes bolter is a better bolter than anyone elses, but it doe's not say they are inferior too a marines in fact it says the sister's gear wise are the only other army in the imperium too have as good gear as the marines (wel youd find that when gw had finally decided the emperor was a god and just wanted too make a joan of arc, paladin based female version of the space marines) and thats i think what people need too get threw there wee heads which is annoying me

Games workshop wanted too make a paladin aka a divine powered warrior chosen from birth female version of the marines and thats what the sororita are and its like everything you cant argue what something is with the guys who invented it

i suppose this is a bit of rant post but what am i too do people just wont listhen when i try too explain what battle sisters are i almost find it like bashing my head off a brick wall

the problem is these 2 are heresy gm's

1 doesnt understand that the sisters not even just the battle sisters but the sisterhood as an overall do much more than work for the ecclesiarchy and are also the chamber miltant of the ordo hereticus and vast other duties

the other being a mrine player cannot contemplate that the sisters are basicly female marines with faith powers instead of enhancements made bye the emperor as a god made as paladins instead of being made bye the emperor as a man made as super soldier's

the worst part of it all is that as a sister player i should be likeing marines in all such games instead i find myself wanting too make the point bye killing me a bunch of space marines

maybe i can avert harming loyal marines bye finding a chaos marine players or talking my gm into sending us against such heretics or maybe i could just go off and find the dark angels after all they've sadly over the years been pretty much made chaos marines in waiting

but too be honest else wise i find my main gm's gming of heresy very good

sadly the other one insists on random generation of everything which means one could end up playing something you'd just not want too play

but the main problem is sadly the only FFG game with marines in it is deathwatch and people dont seem too be able too get there not normal marines there rank 9 marines if compared too dark heresy characters

anyway sorry about this rant but as its an FFG subject of dark heresy relation i figured id put it on the forums and see what people thought

"FOR THE EMPEROR"

You my friend are fightign an uphill battle. One thing to keep in mind is that the Sororitas equipment in DH is balanced with other classes in mind for the same game. If their bolters did as much damage as an Astartes bolter from DW then they woudl paste people in DH regularly. Now equipment aside the new Battle Sister career is poorly balanced skill and talent wise against other classes from the same game. Battle Sisters do not get mutiple attacks until Ascension level despite Adepts picking up swift attack at some point during their career. They pay a premium for almost all skills and talents compared other careers of the same calibre. For instance Pistol training (sp) is 200 for Battle Sisters at rank 1. They pay double what a Guardsman does for Basic Weapon Trainign (Flame) which is arguably their signature weapon. There are more examples.

To be honest, you should not compare the DH game with DW game. The DW game is rebalanced to make SM's as they are written in the various novels. In those cases SM's are very very good, killing hundreds of enemies in an afternoon. To do that they had to tweak the system. As it is now you cannot compare the two games.

One of my players wifes wanted to try a SOB in our DW game, as an ascended seraphim/palatine she rocked. Duel wielding inferno pistols she blew holes into heretics by the dozen. Her faith talents made the chaplain jelious, he wants them now, I told him to roll a Sister. Soul Storm for the WIN!

too andrewm9 and sister calidia: yeah i have been thinking on it and do realise the sisters gear has been done and there more expensive advances the way they've been done for balancing puroposes

and too be honest i dont have that much complaint that way my sister is pretty much a killing machine

my main issue is just that with my 2 DH GM's im having too explain over and over what the sisters really are because not only have they not read any sororita book or codex or 40k lore they've not even read the sisters sections in the DH books

which makes it very frustrating at times being in games GM'd bye people with no idea about a sister, with a sister character and of course me playing one

but thankfully my core GM is coming around and finally listhening too me after showing him in black and white many book pages rather than arguing the point he is also a very "fluff" loveing GM and has said that the sisters power armour having made less than should be for balance is gonna be altered at rank 5 from being as is too being as should be so thats very cool especially as i didnt ask for that but as i said he is very into the game being accurate too the fluff

mind you all in all i do love blood of the martyrs especially the new much better way they've done the faith powers

i was just a bit disappointed that my 2 DH GM's were running DH and having a sister character without full knowledge of the sisters which meant i was constantly having too fill them in so too speak when personally as a GM myself if i run a game i arm myself with knowing everything i need too know

and yeah nimon ive worked out that the marines in DW being hero marines means yeah you'd be a palantine and both me and my main GM realised exactly what your saying that in truth shed be a killing machine in DW and in some ways better than her battle brothers

Ya I agree how can you GM a game and not know what an Adepta Sororitas is? Actually how can you even play and not know that? HA! Well prehaps show them to Lexianum website for some background or have them play dawn of war soulstorm. I read another thread where someone said their GM would not let them take Forbidden Lore Mastery!? If anyone should get that it should be a Sister!

Battle_Sister_Huber you suffer from the same problem I do, that you are both a roleplayer and a table top player. I've played against SoB's many times and they are hard as nails, not normally as hard as SM but that's what the points difference is for. As for the the Armour not having read it but does the Sister armour make you Hulking as power armour without black carapace increases your size to hulking making you easier to hit. Remembering what the models look like it shouldn't do, the sister armour is sleeker.

I had this problem when I looked over the Tyranid stuff, being a long time player but they have done them justice, fast and frightning.

Bring on Dreadnoughts for DW and Penent Engines for Sisters.

Let's face it - the problem was that the Sisters of Battle did not really "fit" the power level of Dark Heresy. People (understandably) want a balanced game, but whereas the balance in the TT was maintained by greater/fewer numbers (via point cost), in the RPG the general consensus is that every character should be somewhat close to everybody else. And then you end up facing the difficulty of trying to squeeze in a Sister Militant in-between a Guardsman and a Duelist.

So in a way, of course I can understand the need to "nerf" the gear. Early access to power armour and boltguns makes Battle Sister characters still extremely powerful in comparison to the other careers. Maybe it would have been smarter to implement the Sisters Militant as some sort of "Deathwatch-style" variant for Dark Heresy rather than normal characters. Maybe it would have also been smarter to limit Sororitas characters to the roles of novices for normal DH games, only getting promoted to full Sisters with Ascension.

That said, let's not get too negative here. The potential is there, and it's an immense amount of it, too! BoM, although still making some very odd choices, is a big improvement over what we got with the Inquisitor's Handbook. The roleplaying options are vast, and I really wouldn't want to miss out on it.

Perhaps it would be better to see the mechanics Dark Heresy and Deathwatch as two entirely different games. When you have a Battle Sister active in a game of DW (however that came to happen), adjust the stats of her gear to make it fit better to the fluff, if the discrepancies are truly that big (I don't have DW, so I can't say if the difference is too vast).

That said, I've got one bit of criticism towards how the Sororitas gear was presented in BoM: It felt too close to "off the mill" stuff from the street. Now, I understand that it is hard to avoid this given the above problems, but some tiny adjustments would have gone a long way. For example, why is the Godwyn-De'az boltgun doing 1d10+5 damage, when the Sacristan pistol (which was described as a variant of the Godwyn-De'az) in IH is doing 1d10+6? It's just 1 point of damage, but it would have done a lot to differentiate this weapon from all the others. As it stands, the only thing special about it is the Reliable quality. It's basically a good quality normal boltgun as sold on the streets, and that's about it.

But I suppose this is where houserules come into play.

Lynata said:

You are right, I think black libraries first attempt at the Adepta Sororitas was an attempt to make them alittle watered down to"fit" into the DH power level. Now with Ascended Characters though I am very pleased with Blood of Martyrs, I do with they expanded alittle bit on individual orders though like they did for space marine chapters.

Godwyn-De'az bolters also do Tearing(throw and extra damage dice lowest) which adds to its quality.

Now with Ascended Characters though I am very pleased with Blood of Martyrs

Godwyn-De'az bolters also do Tearing(throw and extra damage dice lowest) which adds to its quality.

****, this new forum is extremely iffy. Why did they switch over in the first place?

Sorry for the messed up quote.

Lynata said:

No problem:), But as far as the bolters go, not all of them have tearing, the sacristan does not, at least not in IH. I do agree though, compared to an astartes bolter that does twice that, you could justify the extra damage on that alone.

Nimon said:

Was there not an Errata that gave Tearing to any and all boltguns in DH by making it a normal characteristic of this weapon type?

And yeah, Astartes boltguns really seem to be overpowered - at least from what I've heard. I don't have DW yet, though I intend on getting it just to look at the Requisitioning rules. That NPC Marine Sergeant's gear in that one adventure book was much more reasonable... 2d10 like the Angelus, iirc, which I had always thought of as being a side-effect of the more powerful bolts having a chance to simply pierce through the target and exit on the other side instead of detonating within the target, basically resulting in the two extremes of doing either 2 or 20 damage rather than the more "stable" 6-11 of a standard boltgun.

Basic Astartes boltgun in DW makes 1d10+5 P5 tearing.

Braddoc said:

You sure? Everybody says 2d10+5. What's correct now?

Lynata said:

Oh, I did not realize that was Errata'd. Ya in DW 2d10+5, though this may just be for the DW system, I have not seen it listed in DH. I have not played DH since DW came out, my players all hounded me to play space marines, so I have not kept up on it as I should. I also realized that I have an old Black Libraries IH, which probably has some misprints compared to the newer ones. The sister that plays in my DW campaign uses seraphim inferno pistols(which I think rock, especially when used in duel shot), so the differance in bolt guns has not come up too much.

Lynata said:

Hey Lyn.

'Guess I badly saw it the first time. Ha! Yeah 2d10+5.

I would say though that difference is for scale of baddies, if your a sister playing in DW game the your bolter should be equally scaled, but bolters in DH for what i've seen only do 1d10+5X. So easily sorted by scaling the dam dependant on the game.

Valdek said:

I'm probably not going to make many friends saying this but I have to disagree with you on quite a few of your points:

The Adepta Sororitas are not "as good as their battle brothers".

A Palantine is by no means equal to the Space Marines of Deathwatch.

The power armour worn by Marines and Sisters, while similar, is certainly not equivalent.

"The Space Marines in Deathwatch ... are Space Marines of exceptional skill"

Battle_Sister_Huber said:

On this I agree completely. I'm currently playing an ascended Famulous and have already had to explain what it is my order actually does to another player.

I feel this is a problem Games Workshop have engineered by essentially providing only the necessary background for their factions in relevant codices, rather than actually explaining their place in the setting and "how they work". Warhammer 40,000 feels like a game built upon the concept that if you create a universe so huge that individual worlds, much less people, are unimportant, people will let you get away without actually explaining details that aren't relevant to battles that could never actually happen. The whole game takes place in a state of limbo where the death of a single Space Marine is a tragedy beyond measure, yet the loss of a squad is just victory points. As such, their attitude to filling in the blanks really does culture ignorance because people simply don't need to know anything about what goes on off the field of battle.

This hits the Sororitas rather hard because the popular culture image of them is of Nuns-with-guns with pyromanic tendencies, who are essentially bargain-basement Space Marines.

1. The Adepta Sororitas are not as good as their Battle Brothers

Frankly, I'm not sure how you can argue this one. Seriously.

The Space Marine is, supposed to be, genetic perfection. They are the finest prospects of some of the Imperium's harshest worlds, altered to be stronger, tougher, faster and all-around more powerful than any mortal man could ever hope to be. They can kill a man with a single punch, eat and digest things that would kill lesser beings, spit acid and potentially endure combat for weeks without supplies or prolonged sleep.

The Sororitas are human - maybe the best and brightest humanity has to offer - but still human.

Yes, they can draw upon their faith to achieve moments of greatness that may even eclipse their Battle Brothers but that's all they are: moments.

2. A Palantine is by no means equal to the Space Marines of Deathwatch

I suppose this plays off the previous point but it feels like you're willing to work with the RAW when it suits you but oppose it when it doesn't:

Yes, the codices place the Palantine in the same category as a Space Marine commander but they do the same for an Imperial Guard company commander or a Tau Ethereal.

Yes, Space Marines are considered to be rank 9 in terms of Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader/Deathwatch's levelling system but a point that's very frequently made is just how poorly this actually works. Space Marines have a rather sizeable range of skills, talents and traits but are heavily reliant on their gear to do what they do (kill loads of stuff without dying), while ascended characters tend to have a comparatively massive range of skills that let them outclass the Space Marines at almost anything that doesn't depend on pure damage - and sometimes even that. What makes the ascended Sister a surprisingly decent fit for Deathwatch is that, as of Blood of Martyrs, her skill-set is predominantly combat focussed and her investigative skills are generally somewhat lacking. Her faith talents provide a gap-closer that let her do things the Marines can't and with the Mantle of Ophelia she can soak damage about as well as they can too.

In hindsight, I'm coming to realise that this point may not actually be all that sound and I think I may have just taken issue with the way you made it. I think the base of my issue is that a Palantine may have a lifetime's experience, but a Space Marine veteran could have that of several human lifetimes - and almost all of it combat. A Palantine shouldn't, in my mind, be equal to a veteran Space Marine, but the rules certainly don't prevent you from making her good enough to be considered such.

So what I'm saying is: Mechanically, and in terms of value to the Imperium, a Palantine may well be a Space Marine's equal (The latter is rather difficult to quantify) but the problem is that the former is more a fault of the rules of Deathwatch themselves and really shouldn't be the case. (See point 4)

3. The power armour worn by Marines and Sisters. while similar, is certainly not equivalent

Firstly, something you overlooked: Unlike civilian models, Sororitas power armour doesn't need a new power supply every 1-5 hours.

This is a pretty simple one when you think about it. The Sororitas wear power armour to designs commissioned before the end of Vandire's reign of blood, at least that's what Blood of Martyrs implies, while the Space Marines wear more recent models - up to the new Mark 8 "Errant Armour" in rare cases. While I agree that, certainly on mechanics, FFG have made a few odd choices with power armour, I'd far rather have a best quality Sororitas suit than one which could die on me after an hour of use.

4. "The Space Marines in Deathwatch ... are Space Marines of exception skill".

FFG did a great job of showing that then. Is that what their 1000 points of experience, that can't be spent on Deathwatch talents, is supposed to reflect?

An Apothecary needs over 8000 experience to reach Medicae +20, a Librarian's talents pale in comparison to those of a Primaris Psyker and the Techmarine needs to reach rank five to gain a definitive advantage over a Tech Priest in his field.

What abilities do the Space Marines of Deathwatch have that "ordinary" Marines would not?

All that comes to mind is Common Lore (Deathwatch) and Forbidden Lore (Xenos), and those are learned through hypno-conditioning.

Basically, I agree that the Sisters of Battle are "basicly female marines with faith powers instead of enhancements made bye the emperor" but in that same vein I'd suggest that an Imperial Guardsman is essentially a Space Marine, but without the power armour, bolter or enhancements.

Space Marines are, and always should be, better than the Sisters of Battle. They're called "The Emperor's Finest" for a reason.

Just for the record: I loathe the Blood of Martyrs rules for the traditional Battle Sister. While I realise the multiple careers in the new book make a far more sensible depiction of the Sororitas than the single branching career of the Inquisitor's Handbook, I hate that they are now pencilled into a career with essentially no scope for individuality outside of your choice of faith talents.

Space Marines are, and always should be, better than the Sisters of Battle. They're called "The Emperor's Finest" for a reason.

The issue I see is that the Marines are not supposed to be better in every single regard.

What makes a Marine special compared to a Sister, when we're just looking at the basics of biology and equipment (leaving out individual knowledge, experience, etc)? It's the genetical enhancements, and nothing more. This is how it should be. Yes, their power armour is also stuffed with all manners of nifty gadgets the Sororitas' Angel-pattern does not possess, but food mixers, waste processing plants, larger air supply and drug injectors and whatnot do not really affect the suit's performance in combat. It was always stressed in the fluff that the Sisters' armour provides an equel level of armour protection, yet this is not present in DH/DW, which in turn hurts the believability of Sororitas used to hunt down renegade Marine Chapters or, in terms of gaming, fight alongside Marine characters in DW.

That said, I've resorted to circumvent this inconsistency by telling me that the armour protection really only extends to the plating itself, and that a Marine's additional AP comes from the many internal systems that provide a layer of "improvised" armour (such as a bullet penetrating the plates but then getting stuck in the food mixer). I suppose this would make sense...

What is utterly incomprehensible, however, are the differences of weapons damage between the Sisters' and the Marines' gear, which gets even more ridiculous when you think that (in the fluff) some boltgun patterns such as the Mars-Beta were actually used by both organizations simultaneously. This is where I think DW fails in its representation, breaking the compatibility between the different systems. But as pointed out above, I suppose one could see this simply as a difference in storytelling, and scale the weapons in both systems up/down depending on what kind of style you want for your game.

The way I see it, when you have a Marine and a Sister in the same game, the difference should be that the Marine is stronger and more durable whereas the Sister brings unique non-combat skills/experience and better social interaction with her, with both types of characters differing little in terms of equipment. As it stands in DW, however (at least from what I've heard), a Marine is simply "moar awsum" in everything, even starting with a Fellowship of 30 (which is kind of ridiculous given their upbringing and daily routine).

Just for the record: I loathe the Blood of Martyrs rules for the traditional Battle Sister. While I realise the multiple careers in the new book make a far more sensible depiction of the Sororitas than the single branching career of the Inquisitor's Handbook, I hate that they are now pencilled into a career with essentially no scope for individuality outside of your choice of faith talents.

That's the price for playing a Sororitas (or a Marine) character. To be honest, it should have always been like this. Individuality comes from roleplaying the character's personality and subtle differences in methods/equipment used. If you want even more freedoms in terms of gear and progression, roll a character that is not part of a strictly regulated organization which has dogmatic guidelines every member is supposed to adhere to. DH and RT offer numerous alternatives, after all.

[edit] The quote function in this forum is simply HORRIBLE.

Dr. Schadenfreude said:

One thing I have not seen you mention though is a Sister's Faith Talents. If I have a horde of daemonettes coming after me you keep the HB, I will stick with Soul Storm! Space Marines Maybe the Emperor's Right hand, But the Sister's are deffinatly the Left. One thing I am working on though, because I think you are right , the sisters are shown to be less individual then I think is fair, I am trying to put together some rules for Orders of the Calixis Sector, that might be usefull to change that perception. Lynata has provided me with alot of information to help me and shown me that by the original writings the Main Orders are alot more simular to each other then the chapters of the Astartes were, but once you look more local , like orders minoris and individual convents there should be differances.

Lynata said:

Fundamentally, it's impossible for Sororitas power armour to provide "an equal level of armour protection" to Astartes Power Armour, because Astartes Power Armour isn't a single design but eight (more, if you account for the fact that Mark 1 isn't really a single design, but a broad category in its own right), each of which differ in a variety of details, including armour protection.

Should Sororitas Power Armour grant AP11 to the chest like Astartes Mk8 "Errant" armour? Or AP9 like the breastplates of Maximus, Heresy or Corvus armour? Should it provide as much armour as a suit that masses considerably more and is built to accomodate a significantly larger wearer?

Reiterating - for what seems to be the hundredth time, including the old disputes about the matter on the previous FFG forums - the statement that Sororitas armour provides the same protection as Astartes armour is one that swiftly ceases to be practical when confronted with the detail of an RPG. How much protection should armour "equivalent" to Astartes armour provide, when the amount of protection that Astartes armour provides varies between marks and patterns and composition (because individual suits of armour are often composed of parts from different marks of armour)? How can you determine specific equivalency when your point of comparison is inherently subject to variation?

People are talking here like faith powers are something generally available for Sisters. I don't have the new Ecclesiarchy book yet, but unless something's changed the great bulk of Sisters do not have them. They require Fate Points, which NPCs do not generally have. Even in TT, if I recall correctly (I don't play the TT, but I do have all the codexes), they require Faithful characters, no? Or am I misremembering?

Also, the Sisters are not the Emperor's left hand, or any hand, they are the armed body of the Ecclesiarchy only, which is not the Emperor.