I need help with two cards. The main problem is that I do not know its name in english, so you should read the cards to help me, if you can.

There is one combat feat card that lets the hero to do an attack with reach.

There is another skill hero from SOB (I think so) that lets the hero to do an attack to a figure that has failed its attack roll.

And this is the problem: the skill, in spanish, says that the hero can do the attack if the monster is at range . The player spent his feat card to gain reach. However, the OL did not let him to attack because, in his opinion, the monster wasn't in range at the moment of the skill activation .

You should read those cards to answer properly, so you could understand the problem.

gran_orco said:

Counterattack
After an enemy figure in your melee range rolls a miss result you may immediately make 1 Melee attack against that figure. You may do this once each time an enemy figure in your melee range rolls a miss result.
Lunge
Play before rolling the dice when making a melee attack.
You gain the Reach ability for that attack.

The OL was correct. Counterattack lets you make an attack if the figure is in your melee range. Lunge gives you Reach only if you are making an attack (you can't play Lunge unless you are making the attack).

If the attack relies on Lunge to be allowed at all, then it fails, because Lunge relies on the attack being allowed to happen before it can be played.

Corbon said:

Thank you very much. I thought it, too.

Of course, strictly speaking, no attack can ever benefit from Lunge, because you can't play it until after you've declared the attack, and therefore you can't declare the attack as targeting a space that you couldn't hit without the feat card.

If you're going to house rule the card in such a way that it can be used at all , then whether or not it ends up being usable in conjunction with Counterattack depends on exactly how you houserule it...though if you want to take Counterattack strictly as worded, it looks like the feat would need to be played before the monster even made its attack roll.

Strictly speaking, Lunge has to be played anytime before (probably even during) step 3, which includes rolling the dice.

"When making an attack" most likely refers to any step of the attack sequence, which together with "before rolling the dice" leaves steps 1, 2 and probably 3 as the appropriate time to play Lunge.

I see it well within the rules to play it at the start of the attack sequence in step 1, i.e. basically directly after stating that an attack is initiated and the corresponding half-action is used, but before designating the target space.

If you interpret triggering conditions saying "play before..." as meaning anything other than immediately before, you potentially open the door to ridiculous scenarios where a card is played but not resolved until a suitable triggering condition occurs seven rounds later, because that still means it was played "before" the triggering condition.

Even if you avoid that in this specific case by interpreting "when making a melee attack" as a restriction on "play" rather than a qualification on "rolling the dice" - which I think is a stretch - the very first sentence of the very first step of making an attack is "The attacking player declares which space his figure is attacking." I don't see how you can argue that anything that happens before that is "while making" the attack. There is no "declare that you are beginning an attack without stating the target" step listed in the rules. One could theoretically add such a step, of course, but that is no less a house rule than changing the feat card.

And even ignoring all of the above problems, you are supposing that the card specifies a window of time in which you can play the card, where the card has absolutely no effect if played at any other time except at the absolute beginning of that window. What on earth is the point in saying "before rolling the dice" on the card if the game mechanics already mandate that you play it several steps before that? Under your suggested interpretation, you could just remove those words from the card, and it would have exactly the same meaning - and its clarity would be substantially improved.

Are you honestly saying you're surprised by the presence of unnecessary words in a Descent product?

Antistone said:

A card that is played is resolved as soon as it is played (unless stated otherwise on the card), so I fail to see your "ridiculous scenarios".

Antistone said:

So, your accurate linguistic parsing tells us that the wording on the card can undoubtedly mean only that "when making a melee attack" is a qualifier for "rolling the dice"? No other meaning possible? I am not a native speaker but spoken and casually written English never occurred to me to be this strict and precise, leaving no room for a different interpretation.

To me the wording on the card reads equivalent to "Play when making a melee attack, but before rolling the dice."

The very first sentence of the very first step reads "the attacking player", so the player is already attacking when starting the first step, otherwise he wouldn´t qualify to execute the attack steps. Thus the trigger condition (as I read it) is fulfilled and the card can be played. A special step before step 1 does not need to be invented.

Antistone said:

The point in saying "before rolling the dice" is (and I am really astonished that you obviously failed too see this) that a figure with Sweep could otherwise declare an attack, roll the dice and then play the Lunge card after he sees that his attack is not a miss.

Antistone said:

Actually I think Antistone has a very good point. The very first thing you do in an attack is declare that you are attacking a specific target space. You must use lunge before this because melee attacks may explicitly only be declared against adjacent spaces (unless you have reach) so the hero must have reach before declaring he is attacking the distant space - he can't declare he is attacking the distant space (which he currently can't affect) and later gain Reach.

Therefore, despite what is actually written on Lunge, it must be played before declaring the attack (if it is to actually work as a card).
Therefore it could be used together with Counterattack.

Probably what this means is that Lunge actually needs revising.

Corbon said:

Other question to the FAQ?

It should be revised with the timing of the cards.

Corbon said:

Sorry Corbon, but I don't understand well. So, the final answer is "yes, the OL was correct" or "No, the OL wasn't correct" ??

As per my point of view, the situation was this:

Monster attacks (two squares of distance to the hero with counterattack and the heroe was without reach or weapon with reach), fails, end of the attack, end of the situation.

Players point of view:

Monster attacks (same situation) fails, THEN (after monster's attack) heroe spents lunge card, he gains reach, so he can activate counterattack.

That's not logical for me, sorry. (I'm Gran Orco's OL. ) :-P

Lunge card says:

"Play before rolling the dice when making a melee attack. You gain the reach ability for that attack."

So you must spent it before doing the attack, so, as per my point of view, you only can spend this in your turn (declaring attack/s in your own turn) or as trigger of guard order (then you can spend it in OL turn), or if the monster was adjacent to the player (in the last situation) (well, in that case, it's not logical spending the card...lol).

Counterattack says...(well, all of you know what says..... lol)

So as per Corbon's first answer to Gran Orco's question, I think the same (I'm agree with Corbon's first answer).

Sorry for my bad english.

Regards,

Ap0

I don't see how Lunge can work with Counterattack to let you hit a monster outside your reach. Counteratack's trigger requires them to be in melee range when they miss. Lunge can't be played until you've declared an attack. There's just no way for the enemy to both be within your reach when it misses and far enough away that you need to play Lunge to hit it.

The point Antistone (and later Corbon in response) are making is that, the way Lunge is written, it can never be of benefit, because it must be played after you have declared your melee attack, and unless you already have Reach, you must declare melee attacks on adjacent squares.

Ap0 said:

Technically, the first answer was correct - lunge cannot be used in this situation. BUT

What Antistone pointed out was that Lunge cannot be used to gain a benefit in any situation, by the same technicality. Therefore, we either assume Lunge is a useless card that does nothing at all, or we 'adjust' the wording on Lunge so that is can be used 'normally.
1. Every attack, whether guarding or normal , must first declare the space to be attacked. This is the very first thing in the attack sequence.
2. If it is a melee attack, it can only be declared against an adjacent space (unless you have Reach before you declare the attack).
3. The wording of lunge says play before the dice are rolled when making a melee attack . In order to be making a melee attack you have to have declared the attack already.
- the sequence is (must be) declare attack, play lunge, roll dice.
But then Lunge doesn't work , because you must have already declared the attack (without Reach, so against an adjacent space) before you play lunge.

Therefore, the only logical explanation is that Lunge can be played at the same time as you declare the attack, allowing you to resolve Lunge first, gain Reach, then declare the attack is targeting a non-adjacent space.

And if we do that for normal attacks, then it must also apply for guard attacks.
Which means, unless we declare Lunge entrely useless, it can also be used on a guard attack. So Lunge can be used in this situation (if we can use it at all).

Interestingly, 'technically-technically', if we then allow lunge as above it is still being played "before the dice are rolled". It is only the implication that the attack must have been declared before we play it that we are 'breaking'.

Corbon said:

I am in accordande with both statements. Corbon and Antistone have a very good point, but James has another one, too. It is difficult to reach a solution. Could this question be added to the FAQ, probably refering to the timing of cards?