DarkTemplars said:

Nice stormwind fallacy you guys have going there.

Spending time on considering how to make your character more effectively mechanically doesn't mean you're not spending time on roleplaying or developing his personality. It is not a sliding scale.

And keep in mind that since this game is about Space Marines, the ultimate warrior of humanity in a war torn future... trying to be as killy as possibly can actually be debated as being in character. There's no room for push over in the Deathwatch .

ItsUncertainWho said:

A Tac marine clearly isn't supposed to be a jack-of-all-trades, as can be seen from the skill list. I struggled under the same assumption for quite a while, too. If it was an all-rounder there would be more than one melee talent on there, and less than the 20+ shooty talents that are present. A character who lacks a second dodge/parry, and who doesn't get a second attack until rank 6 really isn't going to last very long dealing with anything other than low-powered melee monsters.

As-is, there is no class which acts as an all-rounder in having a balance between shooty and melee skills and abilities. Tac marines are leader-types who are also good at shooting things.

We all know that if you want a killing machine, you play an AM or Dev, really. It's basic maths. An APO can't match either one for killyness, but to my mind is still the most essential team-member, and the one whose role can never really be taken by any other class.

I'm not sure how we've crept into near-accusations of munchkinism and min-maxxing. Discussing a system's mechanics in depth on a forum doesn't really have any bearing on characterisation and roleplaying. No more than a discussion on mathematics allows one to judge a person's artistic abilities.

just taking an ultra tactical marine means that at rank 4 everyone including the tactical marine gets potentially a +14 on every test, if thats not good all round I don't know what is

just taking a storm wardens tac marine means that for several encounters per mission you can surprise the opponent giving you a round when they are helpless (+30 to hit and no reactions)

taking a dark angels tac marine means that as long as the marine was stationary that turn at rank 4 everyone can have +20 to bs tests +20 to dodge tests and +4 to armour on all locations

for any of these to affect the whole team requires tactical expertise or everyone to be of one chapter, which is less interesting for role play. and personally one storm bolter and a melee weapon is quite enough for me. with a fire selector and clips of 60 hellfire rounds you still liquify practically everything

[edit] I'm not saying he's good in melee, he isn't. but I am refuting the claim that he is weak and you never want to play a tac marine when you have the choice of AM and Dev

A spacewolf tactical marine with ritual duel deed, has swift attack and counter attack. He is also a good shooter.

That seems pretty well rounded to me.

Narkasis Broon said:

I most certainly NEVER said that you'd never want to play a tac marine when you have the choice of AM or Dev nor that they are mechanically weak. I'm just pointing out that a tac marine is -without obvious Chapter flavour - most certainly not a hybrid melee/shooter class. They are a shooter/leader class.

You are correct in pointing out that Patterns are the greatest strength of the tac, making them in many ways a 'buff' class.

Although I'm not sure where you are getting +14 from. The bonus is based on Fel bonus, which would surely max out at 7?

Siranui said:

My definition of Jack-of-All-Trades does not limit itself to whether or not you can shoot as well as you swing a sword. ALL is the key word. Being able to do a little of everything, to fill in where he is needed, as needed. That is the strength of the Tac marine.

How did the Apothecary get lost in all this Tac marine mess?

Siranui said:

Just want to point out that he does get TWF Gun at rank 5, and you can fight in melee with 2 pistols. Melee attachment solve the no parry issue.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Despite being the originator of the thread, I don't mind the switch... this is an interesting discussion

Tarkand said:

Minor point, but Gunslinger only works if both weapons being used are pistols.

nolsutt said:

How strange that the much-maligned Space Wolves are actually very attractive in a role. I like it.

I think really the issue is that a tactical marine is poorly named. it is really much more of a sergeant leader paladin type of character. and while in the strict sense tactical marine fits in this category, in the fluff tactical marines aren't necessarily like that. I can't think of a more appropriate name personally. but I wouldn't expect the average tac marine out of a squad of marines to be good at leading the squad

and incidentally the +14 in my previous statement is because at rank 4 the bonus becomes double your fel bonus

Narkasis Broon said:

Well, the Tac marines are, in a weird way, non-specialists compared to the Dev and AM. Since they must be more flexible and they have to be able to react cohesively to different situations, they excel in leadership positions.

Tarkand said:

'Fraid not. Basic weapons may NOT be used in melee, and only basic weapons may mount melee attachments. If a tac is in melee and using two firearms then they don't have a melee weapon in-hand.

As for definitions of 'jack of all trades' then to me, the Tac is no more one than most characters (any character can 'fill in' with ranged or melee combat, even despite the lack of any talents in the area). It's not like they have a bunch of non-combat skills outside their speciality (leadership) to make them skill bunnies and multi-role outside of combat. eg Medicae training around rank 4 would have been nice...

Siranui said:

They are jack-of-all-trades. Compare the characteristic advance tables. A Tactical player can decide to max Int and become very knowledgeable. Or max AG and become Mr. Driver-Pilot, etc. And if you want to have a CC Tactical, you pick Templars, BAs or Space Wolves. Wait until Rank 6, max out WS and try to pick some elite advances until then.

An advantage of Apothecaries is the characteristic versatility too.

Alex