After our first game, the players had fun but bemoan they're lack of an apothecary. They had to spend most of their fate point on regaining health rather than doing cool stuff.

One of them looked up the Apothecary... and while he likes the concept,and only a fool wouldn't appreciate the healing they can provide... he's having a bit of an issue on how to build one.

From the get go, the Apothecary gets a very cheap Melee Advance... so you'd think he's meant to be a melee character, but there's a few key problems with that:

- He doesn't get any really good melee talent until waaay late in his career path (Swift Attack is rank 6...)

- He doesn't actually start with a Chainsword in his requisition, but a Bolter... this is a particulary puzzling message the game sends, as it basically tells you 'Your primary fighting style is melee, but you need to plunk down Requisition to get a melee weapon'. It kinda handicaps the Apothecary by -5 everytime on Requisition. Unless he wants to use his combat knife...

I suppose it becomes less of an issue later in the game when even the Assault Marine plunk down some Req for power weapons, but still, you're basically at -5 Req for something they should give you (Heck, even the art for the Apo has a chainsword!).

- His other cheaps stats are Int and Per... and if you're raising those, you are not raising S/T/A. And while INt/Per don't necessariyl help a ranged fighter any more than a melee fighter, at least the relative 'fragility' of the Apothecary would be less of a drawback if he was played as a support role in the back with a bolter.

Since outside of begging for Elite Advance or finding a way to get them throught Deeds/Advanced Career an Apothecary can't get Two Weapon Wielder before Rank 7, you'd figure the best combat option for the Apothecary would be to find a 2 handed weapon (luckily Rites of Battles provides quite a few) and go with the '1 big attack that does lot of damage' route... which does work kinda well with Swift Attack. But again, the Apothecary lacks a lot of Talent that would make this optimal.

Ironically, a Stormwarden maybe one of the best chapters for Apothecaries... they starts with that Claymore of theres, which is debatably just as good as Chainsword and they get Hammer Blow and Thundercharge, two talents that works very well with the 2 handed style the Apothecary is prone to fall on.

Even with that thought... I'm not sure just how effective you can push those two talents. We don't expect the Apothecary to be the melee beast the Assault Marine is, but you'd think he'd be at least decent at it.

Which raises the other options... let's make him a ranged fighter, which should thematically make more sense anyway (Why would you want your field medic within melee range of the Hive Tyrant? Really...)... but where the Apo is lacking several melee talent, he actually has NO ranged talent. That bolter he gets saddled with his going to be woefully ineffective in his hands for pretty much his entire career.

One of the 'advantages' of the Apo is that well... since he has so little actual combat talents, he stands to gain the most from picking up Deathwatch Champion has an Advanced Career. Indeed, with it he can pick up all the talents he's missing and become a serious fighter, on top of actually adding a power sword to his standard issue gear... except that (I'm assuming in an attempts to prevent the Advanced Career from making Assault Marines obsolete), Deathwatch Champion's advances are horribly overprived.

So... very long post, I know... but ultimately, has anybody found a way to make the Apothecary dangerous as a combatant or is everybody pretty much resignated to 'Well, I'm the worse fighter in the group, but at least I can heal'?

Tarkand said:

My thoughts are that WS is the LAST thing an Apo needs to be worried about. It comes in handy if a blood-crazed Traitor Marine is charging you while you work on getting the Devastator back to his feet but ultimately I think Signature Wargear is the best option after Respected as that is when A LOT of gear opens up at that point. If your Kill-team tends to split up to handle combat, a Jumppack might be a good option (The Errata opens it up to ALL Marines for 100XP at Rank 1)

In the realm of "dangerous combatants" the Apothecary is close to the Tactical Marine, towards the end of the list. However, where the Tactical Marine gets command abilities to enhance the squad, the Apothecary allows the squad to stay alive. Neither of these are ever, ever going to keep up with the sheer killy-ness of the Devestator, Assault Marine, or Librarian. Just not going to happen, but the game is about more than who can kill the most. A high weaponskill allows for excellent self-defense (remember a Reductor can be used as a melee weapon and is always 'on hand').

Now, all of that being said, they benefit heavily from a flamer (of any type) since there's no bs test to hit. Aside from 2handed weapons, you could also heavily benefit from combat or stormshield & say, Powerfist. That being said, until rank 8, they are the ONLY person in the party that can heal, unlike the other classes, where everyone can kill.

BrotherHostower said:

Not quite. There is a Deed that can grant anyone Medicae for 300 xp right from the start of the game, but it has a hell of a drawback attached to it.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying Apothecary are useless... they're high Int and Per can make them the brain of the group. They can focus on lore, pick up demolition, have awareness and be the sentry, etc. And they do heal from the get go and are A LOT better at it than a marine who just happens to get Medica from a Deed or Elite Advance.

Playing to your intelligence (He can also get Tech-Use... he can pick up lores so that the Librarian is free to learn how to blow stuff up, etc). However, it's a bit of a shame that the Apo doesn't beome the group's scholar because he wants to, but because he really doesn't have that much to buy with his xp.

Still, he definitly has is uses.

The whole thing to me tho, is that there's considerable gap in combat power between the other career in on this one... if the 5 other fall in somewhere between 10/10 and 7/10, the Apo is a lukewarm 4...

BrotherHostower said:

The Tactical Marine is actually a lot more dangerous, as he can be way deadlier with Bolters than the Apothecary can ever hope to be. A Tactical Marine can also unlock his own grade of sillyness if he dual wield Bolters (or hell, Storm Bolter!) with Bolter Drill and Two-Weapon Wielder (With Storm Bolters, he can push out _20_ hits... - now load up on Metal Storm clips and pick up Storm of Iron and deals way to much damage to the nearest Horde) and optionally Bolter Mastery ... putting the heavy bolter Devastator to shame damage wise, while remaining a hell of a lot more versatile and being the leader/face of his group.

It's cheesy and not very fluff like (dual wielding bolter/stormbolter really shouldn't be this strong), but it's a-ok according to the rule. However, even without that particulary nasty trick, the Tactical Marine still has several shooting talents, get the ability to attack twice in melee (if wielding two pistol) at rank 4... and still get Swift Attack at rank 6. So yeah, I don't think it even compare lethality wise. Not only that, but the Tactical gets all his good stuff before the Apo.

HappyDaze said:

Deeds are another thing to consider here... there's one for Counter Attack (which also has a good synergy with the big 2 hander style). If you're a Dark Angel, you could take the Duel one, spend 300 xp (so you donèt roll) and grab Result 5, so you get Swift Attack right away (this will make you a lot more lethal compared to what you oughta be in low level games).

But yeah... one Talent won't really change the whole thing. It does seem begging for Elite Advance is the way to go...

Apothecaries can do fairly well on the melee path - if they a Chapter that supports the choice. Blood angels are the obvious choice since you have so few attractive options on the Apothecary list that you'll be able to buy up all of those tasty Blood Angels melee boosts, or play a Flesh Tearer if you want a further melee boost at the cost of -15 Fel. Black Templars can work too, but not nearly as well unless you really need anti-psyker abilities. Storm Wardens have Thunder Charge and Stalwart Defence - both are great for rushing in to save your buddies and then planting your ass there to protect them. I can't really recommend Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or Ultramarines if you want a killy Apothecary.

Otherwise, be content that the Apothecary has some of the cheapest all-around Characteristic Advances. These can really be nice as you can braanch out and be a jack-of-all-trades if you'd like - not super-kill-guy, but flexible. Sadly, Apothecaries are the Cleric of Deathwatch, but there are those that like playing such characters.

First thing I would say is if you are choosing your character build based on how killy you are don't go melee. not in this game. even with no talents and bs 40 you can take 2 storm bolters and go -20 for 2 handed +20 for full auto +10 for short range (50 meters is quite a long way) +30 or so for firing at a horde or big monster = 2 80% attacks where 50% or higher = 8 hits assuming no dodges (and hordes don't dodge)

Or if your GM doesn't allow twin storms (which I wouldn't) then just take one master crafted one, preferably with your signature wargear. suddenly even with 40 BS you have 100% against anything closer than 50 meters and larger than an unarmoured human.

Or do the same thing but with rocket launcher. then a horde (+30 ish) within 125 meters (+10) with master crafting and sig wargear master bonus (+20) will be a 95% chance of hitting a horde and it does something like 18 mag damage to a horde. and for big monsters use the krak missile, 4d10+6 pen 10. whats not to like. everyone has rapid reload at rank three, then you can swap the mags for a half action and fire for a half action.

In short what I'm trying to say is that doing damage is not necessarily the province of experience points. Personally I would take an Ultra Apothecary, start with +5 BS and +5 Int and Enhance Healing. purchase Auto Sanguine and a simple BS advance with my first thousand XP then as soon as possible get Duty Unto Death, then start loading up on command skills to make a Secondary Leader and when my turn as leader came around I would choose Oath of Knowledge which gives a +10 to hit against any foes of a specific type for the whole party. and I would choose weapons above, I would expect to have at least 50 BS at this point, if using point buy I would probably have 60 BS.

[edit] I would also buy a simply Int advance and as much will power as is necessary before Duty Unto Death [/edit]

Apo's most certainly aren't the Clerics in DW, as Clerics are famously best at absolutely everything, including melee. Apos are dedicated healers who are ok at other things. An APO can't match an Assault Marine in melee or a Dev at range. Or even come close. They are the characters that let the others stay fighting, though. If you're looking to just notch up kills, then look elsewhere.

5 req for a chainsword is essentially nothing. Given that characters are looking to get at least 40 per mission, it really is a in the ocean. And you can always 500xp for signature wargear if it matters that much. You can get a powersword for that. And if you play the Apo, there's grounds for the other players handing over a few points to you for you to get a few extra toys, if you can convince them to. Remember: Points can be pooled.

They do only have one attack, but if you focus on getting your WS up high and stacking bonuses, the Feint option really is pretty much as good as swift attack anyway against a decent foe. Two swings at a good foe results in one of them getting parried quite often. Feint helps stop that, and -I believe- if it fails, you still get the one attack anyhow. So: Not really problem.

Not having talents for the bolter is no major problem. Bolters are still good. Really good. You can't make called shots or shoot into melee without penalty, but there's always the weapon specialist talent on the General advance list if you're desperate for something to buy. Not getting Storm of Iron hurts, but in many ways the Apo's lack of focus on any one weapon makes it worth experimenting with others. I'll point out that the flamer does 5+1d5 horde damage without requiring you to even pick up a dice, so lack of BS is no real drawback there at all (heavy flamers are even grimmer!). Or take a look at the Dark Angel relic plasma pistol in the core book.

All that said: If you want to melee lots, go for a blood angel or storm warden. Or... play an assault marine.

As others have said, the other cheap stats (And Apo's get more of them than other people: There's your pat on the back for taking one for the team and playing one!) make the character a good 'skill bunny'. There are a lot of skills that run off those stats that are 'must haves' in the party.

I have always seen my apothocary as fitting more of a tank role, having a lot of abilities that make their own healing easier. Second, the Sniper Rifle is frankly an under used weapon and has served my apothocary very well. With aiming and its range bonuses, it makes up for a lower BS and most gm's will buy the argument that no additional skill is needed since it is a primary weapon of scout teams. (provided your not a space wolf or black templar)

If you want to tank, then Tech-Marine is where it's at. You can pretty much sum up their combat abilities as 'not getting killed': Armour monger, early artificer armour, cybernetic limbs, the flesh is weak, cheap toughness, autosanguine, etc etc...

if they have the make toxins ability this can be nasty , i have seen a storm wardens apoc work fairly well with this

a flamer sort of fits with cauterizing wounds (on a low setting)

a chainsword for those all important battlefield surgery moments

i agree the ultimate tank is the techmarine

I can understand loking at perception being a dump stat for the apoth, but never int. And you definetly want those cheap advances there. If I were to roll an apoth, I'd be looking at grabbing those 1st two advances in int with my starting xp. Healing 10-12 wounds per first aid attempt is great. My current group's apoth thought that int was a dump stat so he has a 30ish in it and didn't advance it any. We're hoping that the GM allows for a stat adjustment since we now know how healing works.

Beyond that I see them as wanting skill that let them play in the middle ground so they can respond quickly in all directions. High agi, maxed out dodge, decent BS/WS and escape talents to let them get out of melee when neccessary. I just see them as they guy running all over the place and popping off a random shot or backhand with a chainsword type character over the I want to get stuck in the middle of the melee scrum.

You'd have to be frankly insane not to at least buy the first two Int advances and at least one perception advance. Perception is never a dump stat in any game.

I don't think there are dump stats in any of the 40K rpg's. This isn't 4E where 1/3 of your stats are irrelevant, and only 2 matter.

The APO is a vital part of the team who's job is not to be the most stabby or shooty. He's the smart one who gets to save everyone else, over and over again. Also think about the fact that a DW APO is privy to all the dirty little gene seed secrets of his KT. IF this doesn't lead to RP possibilities I don't know what will.

Say you have a Space Wolf in your KT and he has a Fenrisian wolf that gets injured. Well the APO might be called to heal it. Two days after they return from the field the APO pops his head in and asks the SW how his third cousin is doing...

From a rules standpoint, I can see where people all want to dual wield storm bolters, but as far as the setting is concerned, that's just not going to happen. At least in my game, the Watch Commander pays attention to what kill teams requisition, and will veto them if they're stupid, like dual wielding storm bolters...

Well, you guys are doing a pretty job of convincing me that while the Apo may not be a good fighter (By SM standard) - it really doesn't matter because he brings so much to the Kill Team.

Narkasis Broon said:

I'm not a big fan of that assumption I've seen quite often on these boards. Because it assume a rather static battlefield where everything always goes as planned. In optimal situations, yes, ranged is better than melee... but how often do you get optimal situation?

Close quarters (space hulk), ambush, sneaking opponents, battlefield with heavy LoS breaks, and many, many more situation can mean that melee combat will happen.

Just in Final Sanction, pretty much every encounter where you deal with Genestealer has them dropping from a roof on you, swimming and attacking you from below, fighting you in tunnels, etc. Despite the fact that our Devastator was raking up the kill count, he cried like a little girl when he gots in melee. He was a star against the Horde yes... but once the fight got real and they were facing Elites foes, it was pretty much all the assault Marine.

WillisRBC said:

Agree a 100% with you, I won't let it be done in my games.

I was just pointing out that saying the Tactical Marine is 'weak' is simply false... as per the way the system is written, he might actually be the most dangerous of the bunch.

Tarkand said:

I definitely agree that with the apo its about bringing alot to the team, which is why my character build made a funky secondary leader, and I think that the Oath of knowledge is possibly one of the most powerful. with the main downside that only apo and lib's can get it.

You are also right that in this game melee cannot be avoided, and I would always pick up a chainsword or power sword if I had enough renown as well as something like a hand flamer if I could. the chainsword would allow balanced parrying and the hand flamer allows for short range all purpose defense. But if you can't get all the traits that make melee brutal in this game then focusing on melee over ranged is going to be hard. I would say every character should take an additional balanced melee weapon. because a tactical marine without a chainsword is in just as much trouble as a devastator if he gets into combat, same probably goes for techmarine (although the servo arm is extremely nice) and for a librarian who hasn't taken a force sword

If I were building an apothecary I would do an ultra like I said in my previous post, because personally I love the oath of knowledge, I would get in my initial exp probably autosanguine, simple int simple ws (or simple bs to replace both of those) and then assuming I got about 40 req per mission I would get diagnostor helmet (15) chainsword (5) hand flamer (10) missile launcher (10). and I would be happy with that if my GM told me to leave my bolter at home, (although as a GM i would allow that with a bolter as long as the bolter was slung over the back and the missile launcher had to be dropped if he wanted to use anything else). The reason I would choose that build is that I would say from there you don't need lots of fancy traits that the apo doesn't have. just buying the cheap stat increases and the command skills would keep me occupied for some considerable time.

Anyway, that's one build your guy might want to think about. Also with regards to tac marines I totally agree. the amount of flexibility you get with them makes them makes them amazing in my opinion. apart from anything else its quite easy to build an ultra tac to 60 fel, get command +20 and suddenly the whole party gets a +6% to every test and a reroll every round (due to tac marine spreading lead by example)

Tarkand said:

Really? Why?

If the Tactical was a hybrid of ranged and melee combatant, then what you say would be true. but that's not the case at all. Tactical Marines are shooter-types. They get swift attack at rank...6 is it? And no second parry/dodge, and no other actual melee skills. They are marginally better than a Dev in melee, and ultimately not even as good as APOs at it.

APOs might not be the best in combat, but I don't think that anyone would deny that having one along on a mission is near-essential.

Siranui said:

It depends on chapter and rank: a rank 6 Blood Angel Tactical Marine with Lightning Claw, Storm Bolter & Bolter Expertise is something that I would not rate as weak but a very good middle-ground guy.

Alex

Strapping 'blood angel' to anything makes it good in melee, in the same manner that strapping 'ultramarine' onto anything makes it a good 1IC so that's a bit of a moot point.

Literally the only thing a rank 8 tac has going for him in melee is swift attack, which he only gets at rank 6. It is the only melee talent on their list, and they don't get cheap WS, either. A rank 8 Dev has as much skill in melee as a rank 8 tac. The Apothecary, Librarian and (obviously) Assault Marine are all far more competent in melee. Even the Tech-Marine is arguably better due to mechandrites and tank-ability.

I think you may be being unduely influenced by preconceptions, as I was, in assuming that the Tac is supposed to be a hybrid. I have to report that the more I look at it, the more it isn't. Just take a good look down the skills list. Sure: They can do ok, but so can any space marine who hasn't got any actual melee talents. They are -save having swift attack (eventually. It's like getting an iterative attack in 3.5 as a wizard!) - no better at melee than a default character.

Siranui said:

While they don't get the least expensive WS advancement rate, they do get a better one than the Devastator. It's something.

A Tac marine is supposed to be a Jack-of-All-Trades, it's as simple as that. Flexibility in any situation is what defines the Tac marine.

I guess the concern I have is with the fact most people here seem more worried about building the most killyest killing machine and less so about building a character.

ItsUncertainWho said:

There does seem to be alot of people more into the ROLL play of the game than the ROLE play of the game.

Siranui said:

By Rank 5, the Tactical Marine has Two Weapon Fighter Gun, Bolter Drill, Mighty Shot, Storm of Iron and Target selection. As per the rule, you slap on two Storm Bolter with special ammo and you simply put dominate ranged combat. At rank 8 he even gets Gunslinger, further increasing his accuracy when doing this... so yeah.

As for melee combat, he's definitly not a strong there. But he does get Two Weapon Fighter Guns at rank 5, which gives him 2 attack in melee combat before all other specialties aside from the Assault Marine and Librarian. He also gets Swift Attack at Rank 6, the same rank as the Apo.

Now granted, the Apo does get Lightning Attack at rank 7. However, weither 3 attacks with almost no talent that work in synergie with them is better than two pistol shots with tons of talent that works in synergy with them (Double team, Mighty Shot, Deadeye Shot/Sharpshooter, Gunslinger and eye of vegeance - making a called shot in melee combat can be perfectly viable) is very debatable... but rather importantly to this debate, the Apo won't 'catch up' (if indeed he does) before rank 7. That means that for the majority of their respective career, the tactical marine is better in CC.

In short, he's the best ranged character and middle of the pack (probably 4th out of 6) in CC... add to the fact that he's extremely versatile, and he's definitely a contender for most dangerous... and than you consider that pure combat prowess isn't the only thing he offers, as even without maxing Fellowship and being an Ultramarine, Tactical Marines are often the best leader to choose... and he's in the line up for best all around.

Granted, this all hinges on dual wielding Storm Bolter/Bolter, which is extremely unfluffy and something a lot of GM won't allow - but I did say ' as per the way the system is written '.