Well I wasn't sure exactly how to have him yet when I thought about it I decided to have him as a Scout class anyways only cause thats his Chapter's primary focus. I'll have to anotate it only his sheet that he does have a black carapace, but prefers his personal Scout armor.

I don't remember seeing the Sniper rifle in the Deathwatch rule book, but I'll look again... I do not own any of the other books yet sadly, but I'm working on getting them in time. Also I didn't realize the stalker bolter had renown on it... I'll have to fix that on one of my new characters I created the other day. Another character from a personal chapter of mine I created.

I hope to get better at this game soon as right now I'm the only one able to be a GM in the group I'm with... Including myself all those that are willing to play have never played a Role Play game like this or D&D of the like.

Our kill team have 2 very good scout build. Sadly you will need ok reputation with dethwatch to use specialist equipment, but you canot have everithing on 1st rank.

Same for both spec:
Take kill marine prestige spec from ROB (rank 1 needed only), learn silent move, cover, shadowing with the +10, +20.
You can get stalker boltgun as master wargear, 40 requisite is enough for a master crafted weapon. (no jamming, and you can reroll the attack)
Reach distinguish renovn and get Masking screen (+30 silent move and cover).
For party support if you have the requisite get signum link. (you can give +20 bonus to all attack when the full team is there)
Don’t forget with a good tactitcs skill (stealth and recon) you can give your kill team a surprise round at the start of the battle.

Now you have 2 very good choices what you want:
No one can detect me:
Choose Black templar tactical marine: Exrta bolter damage, and psy resistance. With high willpower you will be almost immune against psy, this means no one will find you this way. With a scout armour and masking screen and skills you will have ag(70)+50 silent move and cover, very hard to detect you.
You can sneak in, mark the targets with signum (deploy some grenades if needed), wait your kill team, and start the fight with some tactical kill at the beginning. Utilize the suprise round to kill high priority targets (heavy weapon users, psykers)
When youre kill team is in combat they will not have time to search you, and you can shoot them down one by one with an almost undetectabe shoots. Use special ammo for max effect. (silenced for no detection, or other for more damage/penetration/aoe). Use jump pack to run away if needed.

Max damage build:
Choose Librarian. Ask you GM how to requisit psy based weapon (you can give your psy rating to the damage). Choose the chapter what you prefer. You will have lots of option what to do in the battles, but invisible psyker is always painful for the enemy. You will got more damage than the tactical marine but the psy ammo will not be cheap.
If game master let you, use Epistolary for extra damage on psy ammo and as well for a very good support/dps char against Xenos.

Wow I've never thought that hard into it... I'm going to have to rebuild my scout guy from scratch or something cause I didn't even think of half the stuff you mentioned... I was just creating generic characters from different chapters (including my own ones I made) and gave them a few specialties and would let my players choose which character they wanted that I had already made... But I see theres even more thought needs to be put into the characters and their types... Def need to recalibrate my Scout guy... Maybe even my second Librarian and Devastator... I think my tacts are good for now...

Thank you guys for enlightening me! O.o I very much appreciate it.

My group routinely runs a scout team with the scout gear. One uses a sniper rifle the other a stalker bolter both work veyr well Ironicaly one is a dark angle the other a space wolf..

Space wolves are very good scouts I personaly recommend either the devestator or tactical for the roll. This helps break up are huge.

THe power armor can be brough with the drop pod incase it would be needed then stored in the land speeder we use

Well it does say clearly in the errata that the Deathwatch Scout Armor doesn't cause penalties based on AP.

Black Templar, Iron Hands, and a few other Chapters don't actually field any Scouts at all.

And several Chapters have outright disdain for each other, coming to blows and casualties on more than one occasion. In the grim darkness of the 41st Millenium even if you're on the same side it doesn't mean you won't go to war with each other.

BTs field scouts. BT neophytes are scouts. They're just organized differently - no 10th Company, instead placed under an Initiate (full brother/non-veteran) for training.

I'm no Black Templar scholar, but their Neophytes are trained directly by an established BT, they fight beside him like a squire to a knight, not to mention BT's hatred for any tactics that don't let them look their enemies in the eye as they kill them, which is why they don't have Devastators which makes me think the whole "sneaky" bit Scouts do wouldn't so much fly with them.

Right. But they're still considered scouts and fight in scout armor, even if they can't take sniper rifles.

A better example of a no-scout chapter is the Space Wolves since everyone starts as an assault marine.

But Wolf Scout.....its got scout right there in the title. They scout and do all those sneaky scouty things.

Wolf scouts are not Codex chapter scouts. At all.

Wolf scouts are Tacmarines whose Canis Helix drives them to be quiet loners as opposed to pack hunters like other SWs. They've been Blood Claws and Grey Hunters already. They're full Astartes with all implants and can interface with power armor. They wear scout armor because of tactical benefits.

Codex scouts are newly raised aspirants who are still having organs implanted and learning how to use them, they can't even interface with power armor yet and are newbies.

Totally different.

Not to split hairs...but I never said Codex. I said Scout, as in military. As in reconnaissance, stealth, assassination, as in behind enemy lines. Scouts like Forward Scouts, and 1st Recon kinda stuff. In 40k that translates to sneaky people in light armor who get info on the enemy and sometimes kill high profile targets.

I don't give a wit about the Codex.

TempestSatori said:

That's beside the point.

If you are talking about 40K, "Scout" has a specific meaning. Anyone reading "Scout", in relations to Space Marines, is going to infer that you are referring to the traditional Codex Scout. You need to account for this in what you say, otherwise confusion will ensue.

So you're saying that people thinking about 40k will think that BT Neophytes who don't sneak at all ARE Scouts, but that Wolf Scouts who have scout in their name and you know....do scouting missions AREN"T Scouts? Because honestly that makes no **** sense at all.

TempestSatori said:

Yes. when referenced vis a vis Space Marines, "Scout" is a term of art which generally refers to newly raised Astartes aspirants who are undergoing implantation and training. Obviously that connotation doesn't apply, say, to IG scouts since they're not Astartes. But if you mean "units that are stealthy vanguard" and not the term of art, clarity is important. Even though BT neophytes don't snipe and sneak, they're effectively Scouts under the meaning of the term of art. Wolf Scouts are not, for the same reason.

Ok now I'm gonna nitpick a little. Neophytes and Aspirants are different. Aspirants are the ones seeing if they can handle the implantation of the organs and the transformations of the geneseed. And by that wordage you're saying that Blood Angels don't have Scouts because they get all of their organs at once because of the Sanguinary rites.

Scouts in the Codex complaint Chapters are Space Marines who are learning to use their new bodies and learning all the ways their Chapters make war, but their main focus on the field of battle is what? Is it reconnaissance, communication, and assassination? Yes. Are they in military terms a unit of scouts? Yes.

Black Templar Neophytes don't sneak, don't assassinate, don't communicate, and are NEVER actually referred as scouts. Therefore they are Neophytes not Scouts. Because I don't know if you noticed or not but the BT aren't exactly down with the Codex.

Going back to the other chapter I mentioned the Iron Hands field NO Scouts, none. Yet they have Neophytes, who aren't scouts and who I think are fielded in power armor.

My point is the BT never once refer to their Neophytes as Scouts, never make any mention of anything like that, and in fact they do nothing like Astartes Scouts, they don't train the same, act the same, they aren't equiped the same (save for maybe their armor), they don't engage in similar mission types, and the ONLY thing they have in common (aside from their armor) is the fact that they are in the process of becoming a full Battle-Brother, which is why they are called Neophytes in all the BT lore not Scouts.

Wolf Scouts are Scouts. Its in their name, its in their job description, they engage in the same types of mission as all other Space Marine Scouts and are similarly equipped, they ONLY difference between them is when in their careers they take to the field in sh*tty armor. It isn't rocket science. If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck I'd hazard the guess that it might just be a duck.

I'm gonna correct myself on this.

Aspirants are trying to get into the Chapter

Neophytes are in the Chapter and under going implantation and indoctrination.

Space Marines (which Scout Marines are) are never put into battle before all their implants and indoctrination have taken and not been rejected. Though Codex complaint Scouts do have to learn under a Sergeant until they earn the right to wear Power Armor by surviving and showing a full understanding of their Chapter's teachings and attitudes.

Sorry for any confusion or inaccuracy on my part in my previous post.

I'm pretty sure "Neophyte" is a term synonomous with "Scout" in Chapters that field Scouts. Neophytes/Scouts don't have all their implants. As an example, BT neophytes from their Codex are clearly in scout armor, while initiates (their full Battle-Brothers) are in power armor, reflected in the better stats, including armor save.

Here's an excerpt from the 40k wiki :

"Every Chapter of Space Marines must recruit new warriors into its ranks in order to survive. The process varies from Chapter to Chapter, many recruiting from their own homeworlds. These are often feral worlds, breeding tough, harsh new recruits. Whatever the tradition of a particular Chapter, warriors must always be chosen when they are still young, before their bodies become too mature to accept the many bio-implants. During those years, the warrior is known as a Neophyte, or Space Marine Scou t - he is neither fully a Space Marine nor entirely a normal human." (emphasis added)

From the same page:

"Some Chapters, the Black Templars being the most well-known, do not use a specialised company to train their recruits, rather the recruit, or Neophyte is 'apprenticed' to a fully-fledged Battle Brother, or Initiate. Another notable exception is the Space Wolves, who place their successful recruits together in units called Blood Claws. Space Wolves do use Scouts, but Space Wolf Scouts are experienced warriors who prefer solitude, rather than young, inexperienced recruits."

The BTs don't field a 10th Company, but their Neophytes are in the same physical state as Scouts in Codex Chapters. By contrast, Space Wolf Scouts are full Space Marines with all implants, and are veterans, whereas Neophytes/Scouts are newbies.

I'm talking from a physical perspective, not tactics or demeanor. BT Neophytes are physically in the same place as Codex Scouts. Wolf Scouts are beyond them - done with implants, done with training, etc.

Kshatriya said:

It's virtually synonymous in Codex Chapters, in the sense that the two concepts represent the same physiological state in a Space Marine's development, certainly, but they are not the same within the context of Astartes strategic doctrine. In essence, while most Neophytes and Scouts and most Scouts and Neophytes, there is enough of a distinction between the two for them to be separate ideas.

Scout Sergeants in Codex Chapters are a good example of this - they fulfil the doctrinal role of scouts, but are veterans rather than neophytes, and serve as teachers for a group of neophytes who are undergoing field training as Scouts.

Black Templar Neophytes are the same developmentally (in that they aren't yet full Astartes), but differ strategically and doctrinally. Wolf Scouts, by comparison, serve the same strategic role as Codex-style Scouts, but differ developmentally (in the sense that they're veterans, like Scout Sergeants in Codex Chapters).

Kshatriya said:

You Invalidated your own argument. Wolf Scouts ARE Scouts where as BT Neophytes aren't. Which if you recall was my entire point.

TempestSatori said:

Not in the W40K Space Marine terminus for Scouts.

@Kain

Terminus means end or boundary for. Not "inside the bounds of the lexicon of"

And if you read the excerpt that he listed and check out the link he post...yeah it actually does. Seeing as how it talks about BT as the most well known example of a Chapter that doesn't use Scouts, and that Space Wolves have Scouts but field them different than all the other Chapters, because...and the wording of that sentence in the wiki page is key here "Space Wolves do use Scouts, but Space Wolf Scouts are experienced warriors...". It's right there in black and white in the wiki. You can't mount a reasonable defense to that.

You guys might think that that for some crazy reason Scout doesn't mean Scout in 40k....but seeing as how the guy who wrote Wolf Scouts seems to agree with me and so does the **** Wiki, not to mention Military terminology (which the Space Marines use), and good common sense are all on my side. Someone who wears Scout Armor isn't a scout, if he isn't in a Scout Squad, and doesn't perform Scouting missions which BT Neophyte don't do any of. Its cut and dry and truly boggles my mind as to why there is so much argument about it. Because and you can actually go back and look, you can scour all the **** material you like, but never ONCE, not one goddamn time is a BT Neophyte called a Scout Marine. Neophyte is always the word used because THEY.... ARE... NOT...SCOUTS. Truly it is not rocket science people.

I'm not trying to be an ass, and this has gotten very very far away from the intended topic of this thread, but really the argument against me is pretty dumb.

Going to quickly dip my toe in this ever deepening morass of horror...

The technicalities of the situation don't matter at all - whether an astartes chapter uses the word Scout, Neophyte, Initiate, Demi-cataphractoi, Skin-drake, The Modified, or Unsanctioned, if you drop the word scout into conversation, people are going to immediately picture an inch-tall plastic dude with a 4+ armour save. If the box of mini's that games workshop sold said Neophyte, Initiate, Demi-cataphractoi, Skin-drake, The Modified, or Unsanctioned then people would picture that when someone mentioned said appropriate word.

I know that this is a FFG RPG forum, not a place to talk about GW minis. I know it's not correct and there are layers of technicalities, proper wording, and correct diction that prove, disprove or muddle the various arguments floating around.

So can the topic resume, with everyone bleeding off the accumulated nerdrage in the way the God-Emperor intended... by pretending to be genetically enhanced fighting machines in robot armour suits that fight space orcs on motorcycles?

(back on topic for three seconds: I really approve of giving missions to groups that require the use of scout rather than power armour - IMO it gives a mission a certain sense of danger, with the characters being cut off from something that represents so much of their power. It's a shake up for the players and helps to remind them that they are still vunerable flesh beneath those layers of hardened ceramite)

I'm with you Kylan, that's why I made mention of it being way off topic.

And yeah Scout armor is a good option to create elements of doubt, uncertainty, or change to a Kill-team. I mean compared to wearing Power Armor they are pretty much naked. That said there are many and varied good reasons for making them wear Scout armor, and possibly even replacing their holy Bolters with shotguns. If they need to sneak into the nerve center of a Tau occupation force and kill everyone in the logistics room without damaging the equipment, is just an easy example. They have to sneak in, because if they are detected before they get there then all in intel gets destroyed, and shotguns because they don't pierce metal, whereas Bolters tend to do a lot of damage to anything. And just imagine how different a Kill-team will look at something like a Stealth Suited Fire Warrior when they dont have the protection of their Power Armor or the fury of their Bolters to rely upon.

That's a good idea and one I want to try and work in. Downside is that it will definitely require closer GM balancing because of all the extra death potential.

As an aside - if a Kill-Team is storming a Tau ship, that's going to be a power armor or Termie situation, isn't it?

A ship maybe, depends on the insertion, but I was talking about a field headquarters. I mean I don't know a lot about Tau logistic, but I think they use buildings, though it wouldn't surprise me is their HQ's were all like hovering supercarriers.