Lets assume that 100 guys got together to play a massive Deathwatch game, assuming the roles of Marines in a full company. 10 squads of 10 marines each. Some of them would have buffed up characteristics for the Sergents and the Captain. Lots of wargear to go around (each squad would have heavy weapons, about 2 per squad), along with signature sergent weapons and really great wargear for the Captain. In addition, the armory would donate some vehicles to the company and it would have 3 dreadnaughts (I have not received Rites of Battle yet so I can only guess how powerful they would be). Assuming that this is from a normal chapter, they would not have deathwatch training but would have the benefits of being standard marines.

So, with a company, which is a standard deployment of Marines in the warhammer 40K universe, what can be accomplished? How far could you go in the Jericho reach? Would you turn back a Xenos invasion of a planet or go on the offensive and take over a planet? Would you focus on one front or try to divide your forces among all 3? What could be accomplished with a company beyond what could be done with a kill team? The purpose of my question is that, according to the warhammer 40K fluff, a space marine chapter is a mightly force despite being 100 men. Deathwatch seems to capture the power of Novel marines quite well, how much could a company accomplish given that individual kill teams are able to sometimes turn the tide of battle on a given planet (according to the mssions published)?

I'd blitz straight for the Tau HQ world with a fleet and wipe them out hands down.

Well, Abnet's "Brothers of the Snake" has 5 Squads and a Librarian (51 men) literally stop thousands of Orks in a head on battle with no losses. And this was a group of 51 without even any vehicle support, and limited (If any) heavy weaponry.

So according to some of the fluffy bits of Deathwatch (page 339 & another one that discusses a joint operations base of DW Marines and Standard Chapter Marines, but I can't find the reference currently), there is something in the realm of 16 full companies of Space Marines (various chapters) + fighting elements of 4 other chapters, plus a 'special detachment' of Relictors, a classified number of Grey Knights, and then you've got the Deathwatch.

That, to me, says the might of the marines is significant in the Reach, but they can't win the crusade on their own. That or they're being very lazy.

I also look to some of the other named crusades that took place and see a similar theme- the marines are there and do amazing things (like flatten thousands of orks), but they alone don't often win whole sectors. If a single company of marines could win a whole salient by themselves with any regularity, the galaxy would be a much less dangerous place.

That said if you did a game on a scale like that (even if it weren't 100 players, if it were 5 that were only playing part of a company), turning the tide would be thematically appropriate.

Personally I'd focus on a smaller group of worlds, around 2 or 3, and let them get attached to the missions on those planets, the people there, the objectives, etc. Give them something solid to fight for and win, each one taking about a third of the campaign. Put them in the salient of your choice, whichver enemy you want to fight. Then pick your main scenarios (defense, assault, etc.) and slap them on one of the planets. Within those, pick your smaller scenarios (trench war, hold-out-for-reinforcements, cleanse and purify, etc.) and sprinkle them into each of the campaign pieces. Have them win the worlds in the dramatic themes of your choice. I'd probably also toss a world in the middle where they were up against odds that would make them lose- exterminatus, the taint of chaos running too deep, simply logistical failures hamstring their allies, the swarm is just too big and ground must be given in exchange for time, etc.

In the 16 Companies (Note it said: At the Outset) defense.

There are Chaos Legions involved. Chaos Marines are at least as good in most cases.

Tyranids are bad news even for Marines. Worse, the Chapters aren't cooperating very well against them with the main Imperial Forces.

Tau Front? Well, ok. You'd think there might be more there.

Finally, again pointing out that was at the beginning of the crusade. It also mentions in another place they weren't happy with how cautious things were. So many might have left.

peterstepon said:

Just to make a few things clear - a Marine Chapter is roughly 1000 marines, divided into 10 companies. The 1'st company consisting of veterans who moslt have Terminator-Armour training (though that doesn't mean they allways fight in Tactical Dreadnought Armour), and then four Battlecompanies which are consisting of 6 tactical-, 2 assault- and 2 devastator-squads. Then you have four reserve companies, consisting of two companies of tactical marines, an assaultcompany and a devastator company. The last company is a scout company (filled with soon-to-be marines called initiates).

The Battle Companies all have bikes, rhinos, dreadnoughts and landspeeders, while the reserve companies have various vehicles as befits their roles.

And regarding the deployment of marines, then they are often deployed in squads (sometimes several squads), and only rarely as whole companies. It would be kinda like deploying a full company of Navy Seals/Delta Warriors/SAS/Jaegers/whatever kinda bad-a** soldiers available. While they would kick a**, it’s just not effective use of resources. The Marines are more like a scalpel making sharp incisions where they can tip the balance of battle, eradicate the enemy leadership, take out priority targets or hunt especially dangerous foes. Only rarely do they function as the hammer of the Imperium (that role is more fitting to the Imperial Guard meat grinder).

You must consider that marines – as opposed to the Imperial Guard, are a finite resource. The entire galaxy only has about 1000 chapters, each with maximum 1000 marines (unless they don’t follow the Codex Astartes strictly, as in the case with the Space Wolves or Black Templars). With the millions of worlds in the Imperium, then you don’t even have one marine per world, and the loss of even a single marine takes a lot of time to replenish, as you have to find suitable recruits, implant them with loads of organs, and train them for years on end, before they are even ready to enter the Scout Company… And there they might stay for several years before becoming fully fledged marines.

That doesn’t mean that they never deploy a full company, but often a chapter “only” assigns a single full battle company to an entire campaign – and often even less. Continuous mass deployment of marines is simply not an option. Rather deploy 1 million guardsmen and loss half, than deploy 100 marines and lose 10.

Theodocian said:

Making the Storm Warden's commitment to the crusade even more remarkable. Further information I take it will become available in the supplement that comes after Mark of the Xeno.

Alex

While it might seem like a 'bad death' there is also the very real chance of Space Marines being killed aboard ship before they ever get a chance to use their personal might. Without a good screen of Imperial Navy vessels, even the tough ships of the Astartes are going to fall before a Tyranid hive fleet or a barrage of Tau forces.

HappyDaze said:

true, however the indication in most of what i've read is that ship to ship combat rarely kills everyone on a ship. quite often just leaves it 'dead in the water' and exposed to vacuum, which would kill any guard on board but marines could potentially survive even that thanks to susan.

but yes a million or so marines in the galaxy is correct which largely prevents large scale deployments. In dawn of war 2's campaign you don't ever really have more than about 11 marines on the field at any one time and yet you still slaughter nids by the thousands.

having said that drawing comparisons between the grey knights and the deathwatch. the knights also deploy in single squads. when Justicar Alaric went to planet Chaironia he had I think 5 other knights with him. But once in a while something really bad ass does come along that requires a full commitment of troops. 3 or 4 whole companies of grey knights were wiped out fighting the daemon prince Ghargatuloth. and another whole company was destroyed fighting Angron on Armageddon. Having said that the grey knights are anything but a codex chapter so a company might not be 100 marines, and there may well be more than 10 companies in the grey knights. I get the impression that there should be as a thousand grey knights in the galaxy is just nothing when every time they fight a daemon prince 100+ die.

So yeah in summary my answer to the actual question is unless something truly unprecedented comes up like trying to capture a norn queen alive for study split them up and save 10 worlds at a time

MILLANDSON said:

Charmander said:

I thought the same thing, they are being lazy or surprisingly ineffective. There seems to be about 2000 Marines in the Jericho reach which is a huge number. However, considering that you have the vanguard of the Tau empire, a contingent of Chaos Marines (the equal of Space Marines), plus a Hive fleet, you have a xenos and heretic pile up in the region. Still, as you mention, 16 full companies plus other marines will lead to some massive progress. I recall in one of the write ups of a Deathwatch base that there were 20 Deathwatch marines plus 50 Storm Wardens holding back the Tau forces which again validates that it takes only a few marines to get big results.

In the Codex Space Marines 5th edition, there is a list of major deployments in the galaxy. Most deployments are a few companies, though a number of chapters are involved in the battle of Armagedon and the containment of Hive fleet Leviathan. One other Chapter is dedicated to destroying Hive Fleet Colossus. There was an indication that a multi Chapter force was in the Galactic East which may have been a reference to the Jericho reach.

Remember also that the Ultramarines Chapter, were able to maul both Hive Fleets Kraken and Behemoth. This shows that a full chapter could accomplish just about anything if properly used.

Is this question loaded with the suggestion of running a sort of campaign amongst the online community or at a convention?

peterstepon said:

What would i do with a company of 100 badass space marines from the Death Watch?....Order the whole fleet towards the eye of terror and take care of buisness.Im sure besides chaos marines there would be all kinds of mutant and xenos infected filth that needed cleansing.......for the emperor of course

Dulahan said:

I also got the impression that, at the beginning of the campaign (prior to PC intervention), the Imperium is losing ground in the Jericho Reach.

Just to add perspective for a proper sh!t of a battle, probably one of the worst in recent Imperial history, the Third Battle for Armageddon, there were over 14,500 marines deployed from over 23 chapters. Plus innumberable IG, navel support and titan legions.

When Space Marines where clearing planets on their own during the crusades the heresy they were swarming planets in their 10's of thousands and in some cases they actually had problems during the crusades. In some was being limited to chapters is blessing as it's forcing them to use troops more effectively. There's no point in having Marines clearing out pockets of resistance for weeks afterwards or guarding every space port and ammo dump when you can leave that to the Guard.

So what can you do with 100 Space Marines? Pretty much anything if it's supported, it's how they mostly engage them anyway. A strike cruisers made for company after all. But the big fights need a battle barge (up to 3 companies or more) so you have to ask how big a fight this is?

HappyDaze said:

I think a more accurate appraisal would be that the crusade is at a turning point, when it could fail or succeed, depending on the actions of those members of Deathwatch who operate within the Jericho Reach.

I think the best way to think of the Marines is super, stupidly, amazing Special Forces.

Yes, they're Superhuman by most definitions. But whether 100 or 1000 they're not going to be able to win a full war. they can accomplish things that WILL win it, with the right support. But especially 'only' 100, that's not going to.

Heck, that's part of the reason for the division after the Heresy, so there could not be armies of Astartes to rebel anymore.

You use them as precision implements. 100 Astartes? That's what you send to the most important part of the campaign for a world. That 100 will spearhead the breakthrough for the hundred thousand guardsmen in the trenches. That 100 can take the capital city and secure the starport. That 100 can raid and destroy he most heavily defended artillery depot deep behind enemy lines. That 100 can hold the most important part of the battle line indefinitely. Or deploy and hold for the crucial first 24 hours so the million guardsmen can land and organize to take over.

What they can't do is fight the war alone against a large enough army. They fight and win battles. Not Wars. Or rather, they fight and win the most important battles that turn the tide and ultimately win the wars.

think Jedi from the more modern films

"senator we cannnot fight your war for you "

but we can certainly win

The biggest assets of the Astartes when it comes to warfare is the enormous firepower they can unleash compared to the small size they represent as a target.

This means that while they're not entirely useless in defensive positions, their small number works against them, unless they defend a narrow or small position. Their true strength lies in commando raids and lightning strikes against key positions, often behind enemy lines, where their speed, armor and overwhelming (when concentrated) firepower can take the enemy out before he even knows he's fighting. A war of attrition is something a space marine should never find himself in. This usually means that something has gone very wrong, or someone made a poor tactical choice.

100 battle brothers would be overkill in most, but the most dire of circumstances. A force of this size would best be used in something like taking out most of the key locations in a hive spire, while regular forces engage the enemy troops and armour.

Jackal_Strain said:

Or they're from one of the Chapters who prefer attrition warfare...

That has always smelled of bull to me. It is clear that the authors who claim that some space marines somehow prefer to fight a war of attrition know nothing of military tactics.

They simply don't have the numbers, and it's a gross waste of their intended talents and resources.

Yeah, if anything it comes down logistics.

They may have the skill to win it. but it would be physically impossible to carry and maintain and defend the equipment to win it. Ammo alone won't last too long. Against 10 million Orks... that 1,000,000 rounds of Bolter Ammo will only get your 100 Marines so far. And that's probably a generous amount of ammo. Heck, they still might even manage to win... but they won't be defending anything more than the area they're in. The rest of the world will be toast.

An example, in Brotherhood of the Snake. An Ork Waaagh or three crashed into one planet. 250 Marines held out. And broke out. they lost 60. That was with the local (Admittedly crappy and low tech) PDF. But they said flat out even 10 full chapters couldn't have won that fight. (this Waaagh was so big you could see it darkening the planet from orbit)

Really, it's just like myself and others said. Marines win battles or hold objectives, but not wars. It is possible to lose almost every battle and still win a war.

And keep in mind during the Emperor's Crusade, they only had to kill. 10,000+ Marines on a world backed up by millions of Imperial Guard, their usual job? Kill everything. EVERYTHING. And even those armies still tended to only be the Spearpoint to take the big objectives. Once the enemy army was mostly defeated, they moved on. The guard finished.

And finally, thematically. The reason the Marines are in Chapters is so they will never again be armies of Marines. Armies take and hold. Conquer. Chapters? Companies? They're an integral part of a whole.

Jackal_Strain said:

Stop press: Authors of 40k know nothing about tactics. This is not news, and is why 40k isn't really much of a wargame.

To be fair, there are only two types of battle: Maneuvre and attrition. It's as simple as that. If it's not one, it's the other. Attrition warfare is about defeating the foe by depleting THEIR manpower and resources. It does not mean using a meat-grinder approach to utilising your own resources. Space Marines are equipped to do so quite well, and there is nothing wrong at all with using Marines in a battle of attrition, providing you have enough of them to do so, or can achieve the goals using low numbers: Perhaps using them to defend high-value targets that the enemy has no choice but to attack and dangling that target to bait the enemy, using them to pressure a salient, or performing a leisurely attack on a critical target where the goal isn't really to take the target or to break-through, but to simply force the foe to reinforce and loose further troops.

Sure: Given the tiny number of Astartes, it makes sense to use them in blitzkrieg attacks, special forces actions and the like. But in a lengthily campaign, using them to attrite isn't always a bad idea. Because there are plenty of times where surgical strikes and lightning assaults just aren't possible or practical.

And the irony of 40k TT is that it's pretty much ALWAYS a battle of attrition. Maneuvre has little value in the game, and there is seldom the space to perform it.