The new vehicles rules in Rites of Battle include the most fearsome King of the Battlefield, the Land Raider. They look nearly impossible to stop as they have all-round armor of 50.

That 50 armor puts the Land Raider out of reach of many weapons. If my take on vehicular armor is correct, Righteous Fury only takes effect if you harm the Structure Points of a vehicle (ie, overcome its' armor) prior to RF coming into play. Here's a quick analysis of what has a chance of stopping one of these behemoths...

Astartes Meltagun: forget it. You have a 0.1% chance of getting past that 50 pts of armor at Short Range (where you get an additional d10 damage) - meaning you have to max out your damage roll just to do 1 Structure Point of damage (and have a chance of Righeous Fury'ing its' butt).

Astartes Multimelta: better than the meltagun. You need to roll 32 or greater on 4d10 (5d10 at Short Range) to get past the armor and into Structure.

Astartes Plasma Cannon: you actually have a chance with one on Maximal Setting but need to roll 28 or better on 3d10 to top the armor.

Astartes Krak Missile: again a tough proposition requiring you to roll 35 or better on 4d10 to get past the armor

Astartes Lascannon: much better. Rolling 31 or more on 6d10 is a pretty average result.

Astartes Conversion Beamer: your best bet past Short Range where you only need to score 25 or more on 6d10.

Astartes Melta Bomb: ETA; needs to roll 29 on 6d10, so about average to get past the armor.

Astartes Chain Fist: A Marine with a Str in the 60s would just have a chance of getting a point of damage through armor with an Exceptional Crafted Chain Fist if he maxed his damage roll.

Astartes Power Fist: As a Chain Fist above but would need a Master Crafted Power Fist and would have a harder time rolling the max damage needed since they lack Tearing.

Astartes Thunder Hammer: A little better than the Chain Fist if you don't take Tearing into consideration. That same Marine above could Pen the Land Raider on a max roll and a Marine with a Str in the 50s could do so as well if they had an Exceptional Crafted weapon.

Conclusion: If you meet a Land Raider you'd better have a Multimelta or, preferably, a LasCannon to chip it's paint! Meltabombs are your friends as well. If at all possible get a Conversion Beamer...

Oh, a charging Blood Angel with Lightning Claws, Death From Above, Crushing Blow, Flesh Tearer could als do it seeing his chances at rightious fury...

Santiago said:

...Are entirely moot and non-applicable looking at how the OP states the vehicle armour rules work...

One think I've noticed is that most of the DW RPG rules are closer to the Fiction than the Tabletop Rules. So, in fluff, Landraiders are freaking awesome beasts, used to take on Titans in larger formations!

Santiago said:

Santiago said:

Yes, that would be possible. Say Str Bonus of +5 = damage of +12 in PA. At Rank 3 the BA would get +2 Pen from Frenzy. On the Charge with Death From Above he'd get +2d10 damage along with +2 damage for Crushing Blow and +2 damage per degree of success with the Lightning Claws.

So on the charge with a jump pack he'd have to score 21 or more on 3d10, which is worse than average but not too bad. This changes significantly with a good attack roll / additional levels of successes with Lightning Claws. And then there's the higher likelihood of Righteous Fury on top of that.

If something like that attacked a Land Raider odds are good the squad of Terminators inside would come out to play...

Hiromoon said:

I agree.

Yeah thats just silly. I knew it was going to be bad when the meltagun didn't have much chance of significantly hurting a rhino from Into the Storm.

I wouldn't get too excited. Look at the rules for the Tau Rail Gun.

Kilbourne said:

True. But from a man-portable perspective, ie what a Kill Team might be carrying, a Land Raider is bad news. As in "American paratrooper with a 2.36" bazooka going up against a Tiger tank" bad news.

andrewm9 said:

That a main battle tank is impervious to pretty much all save the heaviest of anti-armour man-portable weapons?

If that was not the case there'd be no point in having tanks, really...

That's about as I'd expect, I knew they'd have to pull the armour out of the bag for it to stand a chance. You say it match's the fluff, but's it's not that far from the TT either (epic scale, maybe not, but then EVERYTHING short of a titan was squijy in epic scale).

The differences is that the Las cannon has a better chance, a plasma cannon can penetrate it at all (but a really small chance), and melta's a rubbish, which we knew anyway and has been brought up a bunch of times and the anti armour melee weapons (Chain fist really) isn't really up to it.

As for a kill team's chance's it's going to require more than 1 melta bomb to ensure it goes down. No body said it was going to be easy.

andrewm9 said:

Thing is, the Land Raider seems about right at AP50 (maybe a little high - I personally pegged it in the 40-45 area). The issue isn't the tank, as demonstrated with Into the Storm's Rhino (which is technically more fragile than a rank 8 Techmarine), it's the weapons - the Meltagun simply isn't up to task. A minimum of an extra d10 of damage basic (before the +1d10 for short range), or something equivalent (perhaps +2 Pen per Degree of Success on the attack roll) is, IMO, necessary to bring it more in line with where I feel it should be (same with the Plasma Gun, though as a faster-firing weapon than the meltagun, a flat +5 to damage might be more appropriate as it cuts down on the number of dice you need to roll).

Problem is, even by Tabletop rules, the Land Raider requires numerous shots to take down (why it's often nicknamed Fire Magnet). A krak missle has a 1 in 6 chance of glancing it (which won't destroy it outright). The same goes for a melta/multi-metla at not-6" range, even at 6" you need 3's or better on both dice to get your glance. Lascannons, Railguns, eldar lances & Monstrous Creatures/Dreadnoughts are your best bet at a 1shot kill, and even then, it's massed firepower that brings down the beast most of the time.

Multi-Meltas (at short range), Lascannons, Plasma Cannons (on Maximal), Chainfists (thanks to giving Unnat Str +1) will do the job eventually, and RF on a vehicle is automatically critical damage, so if the Melta-gun gets in it's point of damage, it does something worthwhile. The anti-tank weapons will rip open anything short of the most heavily armored vehicle in the game (next to the necron monolith) easy enough (and moreso with the BIG anti-tank weapons).

Thing is, the Land Raider seems about right at AP50 (maybe a little high - I personally pegged it in the 40-45 area). The issue isn't the tank, as demonstrated with Into the Storm's Rhino (which is technically more fragile than a rank 8 Techmarine), it's the weapons - the Meltagun simply isn't up to task. A minimum of an extra d10 of damage basic (before the +1d10 for short range), or something equivalent (perhaps +2 Pen per Degree of Success on the attack roll) is, IMO, necessary to bring it more in line with where I feel it should be (same with the Plasma Gun, though as a faster-firing weapon than the meltagun, a flat +5 to damage might be more appropriate as it cuts down on the number of dice you need to roll).

---stupid forums

I don't know what happened....... It just blew up.

Thing is, the Land Raider seems about right at AP50 (maybe a little high - I personally pegged it in the 40-45 area). The issue isn't the tank, as demonstrated with Into the Storm's Rhino (which is technically more fragile than a rank 8 Techmarine), it's the weapons - the Meltagun simply isn't up to task. A minimum of an extra d10 of damage basic (before the +1d10 for short range), or something equivalent (perhaps +2 Pen per Degree of Success on the attack roll) is, IMO, necessary to bring it more in line with where I feel it should be (same with the Plasma Gun, though as a faster-firing weapon than the meltagun, a flat +5 to damage might be more appropriate as it cuts down on the number of dice you need to roll).

Instead of a damage or pen bump, should we be looking at some form of Anti-Vehicle trait?

What if a Melta weapon could automatically do a crit? Maybe you get to apply 1 point of critical damage per 3 DoS on a successful attack vs an armored vehicle, while still doing normal damage?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Remember the instant death rule from 40K? I think melta needs a general damage boost, not just against armour.

Alex

Crits don't do extra damage against vehicles.

Assuming DW is using the same vehicle rules as Into the Storm, when you confirm a crit, you roll 1d5 on the Vehicle Crit Chart. You don't have to penetrate the armor to get the crit.

Edited out my comment on how the Reinforced Hull affects this. ItS p 178 says in big bold print that quality does not affect rolls on the Critical Hit chart generated by Righteous Fury .

I think the DW vehicle rules system is the same as RT. However I recall the rules saying that Righteous Fury had to be able to effect the vehicle to damage it. Perhaps that and the 1d5 thing are not related.

In any case I don't want someone doing Righteous Fury against a Land Raider with a Las Pistol, and just because they roll a 10 for damage they wind up knocking it's engine out.

darknite said:

Well the rules are the same as RT with errata, and they do mention in order to get a righteous fury the damage of the attack has to do damage to the actual vehicle itself first. Thus, most weapons will not even be able to do righteous fury at all, since you do not roll for extra damage on a righteous fury for vehicles

Ah, right you are, I didn't look in the Errata. Thanks for the correction.

But even so, with weapons that get 4 or more dice, if they do hit for damage, there is a decent chance of one of those die having a big fat '0' on it. So yes, very hard to do damage, but if you do, you may do more than a few structural points of damage.

And if you miss your conformation on your Righteous Fury, you may want to spend a fate point. These beasties are hard to bring down.

The pattern of melta in Rites of Battle has better pen/damage than the standard melta-gun/multi-melta as well, for added tank-hunting ability for those who say it needs more bumpage.

The landraider to me seems more like a story piece. It's an uber tank that requires uber enemies to take it down, and when you face a Chaos landraider, you pretty much have to use all your wits to destroy it, like target its tracks, get it stuck in rough terrain, blow open the hatch and toss a grenade in, or destroy its weapons, try to collapse a building on it, etc. Conventionally it is very hard if not impossible without using very heavy weapons like demolisher cannon, titan weapons, or probably a baneblade. That being said, the enemy can also use the same tactics on the landraider as well.

My only mechanical concern is that there isn't a lot of hand to hand weapons (virtually none) can that can even scratch a landraider. While more ranged weapons can put a few dents into it.

Veroldindir said:

I think that's fine and the way it should be. the tabletop game requires a certaind gree of balance between ranged and close combat, but a roleplaying requires very little. I actually think that striving to balance the two in every situation lead to a deterioration of the gaming experience. It's fine for the assault marine to not be able to scratch a battletank with his close combat attacks. He makes up for it in other situation. And he is probably the one that's best suited to close the distance and plant a meltabomb or two on the tank with his jump pack (if he's equipped with one).

"Balance is the mother of all discord". By striving to bring balance into every aspect of the game, we end up with a less realistic and in many cases, less fun fun experience of playing the game.