Title says it all, really. I've been re-reading my Badab War book pt2, and it struck me how the secretive and vicious Minotaurs seem to have a number of Death Guard-like characteristics.

I don't want to spoil the Badab War books too much for people (two words, though: get them) so I should warn you that all of this thread will be spoiler-y about them!

Points in favour of the Minotaurs being a Death Guard successor chapter:

(1) A fairly significant part of the Death Guard, under the leadership of Captain Nathanial Garro, didn't actually join the rebellion against Horus. It seems, then that Garro and his colleagues from the untainted Death Guard, could have gone on to produce untainted geneseed which could, over time, have been used as the basis of successor chapters.

(2) The Minotaurs are a 21st founding chapter. This was known as the "cursed" founding. The Badab War book explicitly states that the failure of the authorities at the time the chapter was founded to name the source geneseed suggests it could have come from a "tainted" source. Note that other chapters from the 21st founding (like the Lamenters) are happy to cite their original primarch.

(3) The Minotaurs are repeatedly described in terms that seem to link their personaility traits to characteristics shared by the Death Guard. They are taciturn, paranoid, gaunt etc. The Death Guard were a pretty miserable bunch on the whole, with Mortarion often described as sounding like he was both paranoid and a depressive. (Probably due to his terrible upbringing.) The Death Guard legion as a whole only cheered up when they turned to Nurgle!

(4) The Minotaurs are described as being utterly brutal and aggressive in combat, and apparently willing to soak up heavy casualties. I seem to recall that the write up for the DG in an old White Dwarf suggested that they too were pretty blase about casualties, and that they were incredibly ruthless and efficient in a firefight.

(5) The Minotaurs appear to be willing to kill Inquisitorial agents to protect any details of their activities. Now a few chapters would do this, but what if such paranoia were caused by their desire to hide their shameful gene-heritage?

(6) The Minotaurs appear to be fanatically loyal to the High Lords of Terra, and are willing to be used as their bully-boys and enforcers, even against other marine chapters. Perhaps the High Lords authorised their creation, and are the only ones who offer them security against the other marine chapters, who would no doubt be itching to destroy the descendents of Mortarion?

But there are points AGAINST the Minotaurs being a Death Guard successor chapter, too:-

(a) The Badab war book suggests that they could be a "chimaeric" founding, hinting that they have mixed geneseed from one or more sources. This is ony offered as a tentative alternative suggestion to the "tainted source" idea. Of course, this doesn't rule out the Death Guard idea completely, but a mixed geneseed chapter may not have too strong a Death Guard heritage.

(b) Why WOULD the Imperium bother with tainted geneseed? It's not as if they're short of ultramarine stock, which is perfectly serviceable!

© The Minotaurs are more of a heavy assault force, a siege army, with strong stocks of armour and advanced weapons systems, plus a near 100 strong Terminator company, a rarity in the 41st Millenium, where terminator armour is very precious. In contrast, the Death Guard were always a solid infantry force, with the basic tactical marine being the basis of all their strategy. So there are differences between the two chapters' approach to war. (Although perhaps the Minotaurs are just better equipped...?)

(d) The supposedly "Death Guard-like" personality traits of the MInotaurs (paranoia, dourness) are not exactly unknown amongst the Astartes, and could easily be shared by marines descended from other Primarchs. (Not many of them are "gaunt," too, though ...)

To some extent the writer, Alan Bligh, is no doubt playing with the fans here, inviting us to engage in this kind of speculation. But the identity of the Minotaur's progenitor is clearly INTENDED to be an intriguing mystery in the same way that, for example, the Astral Claws and Star Phantom's ancestry isn't. We don't know for sure who the progenitors of those two chapters are either, but clear hints are dropped that they are Gulliman and Johnson respectively.

I should point out I haven't yet read the new "Garro" book, though, so I could be onto a hiding to nothing with a lot of this! But...any thoughts, anyone?

One could easily make arguements for the Iron Warriors, too, given the armoured nature of their doctrine and stoic outlook.

Stoicism and the will to embark in attrition warfare and inflexible defence is also a common trait of many Chapters (A stupidly high number, given that inflexible defence is basically a moronic idea... I digress). Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, et cetera... Brutal aggression? cf: Space Wolves, Blood Angels... Again, these are common traits.

As regards point 6 - policing the other Chapters - this is traditionally the Space Wolve's turf. Prospero is the obvious example, but if you read Prospero Burns, it's evident that this is not the first or last 'policing' action that the Wolves have engaged in.

As regards 'why use tainted seed?', in a society of a million planets, SOMEONE is going to want to try it eventually...

As regards the Iron Warriors, this may be true. And the paranoia fits, certainly. But I wonder if there's actually as much Iron Warriors geneseed on Terra as there is Death Guard? The DG certainly seemed to have more problems with loyalist members than the IW, from the history we are aware of , anyway.

As for the Space Wolf "executioner" function mentioned in Prospero Burns, this may have been true at many points in the Imperium's history - but the Sons of Russ served the Emperor first and foremost, and may regard edicts to destroy other Marine chapters from the High Lords of Terra with rather more suspicion than orders to that effect coming directly from the Emperor himself.

I'm not disagreeing with you, though, these are good points you make! Ultimately we can't prove it either way...

Lightbringer said:

The true Assassin chapter was the Night Lords. The wolf where wnet on retribution strike where the Night Lord where the true executioner... much to their Primarch distaste...

Again, you could be right. But I always saw the Night Lords as crueller, more unstable than the Minotaurs are described.

I think the more I look at it, it's a very subjective thing: one tends to attribute those characteristics you think fits one's own theory. I always liked the Death Guard, so I see the Death Guard. Siranui's point about the Iron Warriors actually fits very well too, and it's something I hadn't considered...after all, the Minotaurs ARE very much a heavy siege force, as the Iron Warriors were always described.

I'm not sure how many Garro got out, but it's been stated in canon that having less than a hundred marines left pretty much makes it impossible to regrow enough geneseed to make an entire Chapter. Of course, this little nugget does get routinely side-stepped in the case of special snowflakes...

I deliberately avoided using the term 'perception bias' in my first post, but you have hit it on the head: It's quite easy to attribute evidence to support 'pet' theories.

I've personally given up trying to second-guess canon 'secrets', as GW are great at either ignoring them, re-conning them out of existance, or coming up with frankly absurd answers that fit the evidence far worse than many fan-suggested ideas!

Lightbringer said:

I don't think the night Lord would fit, the Night Lords are gloomy depressive stalking killers with a twist for psychology (back then based on Lords of Night book).

DG is much more sensible to a succeeding, a good part of their chapter remained loyal and managed to flee the loyalist slaughter on that planet I can't ever remeber. Alto current trend is to put them as the foundign chapter for the Grey Nights. Whihc would be perfect since the death guard old collors used to be grey...

Not having yet read Badab War 2 (since mine hasn't arrived yet), I'd nevertheless point out that a shared characteristic among the 21st Founding chapters is the "experimental" nature of the founding: all the 21st Founding Chapters were subject to geneseed modification from the donor stock. Ostensibly this was done to "fix" long-standing flaws or produce new and desirable traits, and certainly was done with the best intentions. It just didn't work out that way.

It doesn't seem like the Minotaurs are the result of existing stock with known issues (such as Blood Angels), in which a known problem was trying to be fixed (the Lamenters). While it's certainly possible that elements of prohibited geneseed were used in the 21st Founding, I think it's more likely (and simpler) that the Mechanicus used a baseline stock like the Ultramarines for the Minotaurs, and then tinkered with the geneseed to produce a more aggressive "breed". They just turned out to be a bit more aggressive than expected.

Siranui said:

You literally only need two progenoid glands to make a Chapter. It just takes a while - when creating a new Chapter, the Mechanicus use vat-grown immobilised, disposable 'host bodies' to mature the organs in (over and over again with more 'hosts' in each generation), until they've produced enough viable geneseed to produce a decent number of Marines to start a new Chapter (which may not necessarily be a full Chapter to begin with - there's some evidence to suggest that they make a couple of companies first, test them in the field under supervision, and then go into full production to establish the Chapter once they've proven themselves).

As long as the Mechanicus have even a tiny stockpile of traitor Geneseed in stasis, they can produce successors to the Traitor Legions.

I can understand Imperial reluctance to use stored "Traitor" geneseed...but its not as if the "Loyalist" chapters like the Ultramarine successors have a totally clean record on turning to chaos if the conditions are right...look at the Astral Claws. Many marines from "traitor" legions actually turned out to be more loyal than some of the loyalists!

So perhaps around the 21st founding someone who was alive to these issues decided to dig some of that old geneseed from the back of the cupboard and give it another go...

Cannon says Garro got 70 loyal marines out from the traitor legions. In Flight of the Eisenstein... *SPOILERS*

It turns out he got out 70 (might have been 60 by the end of the flight, I'd need to go back and count a couple of "dead" but it's max 69) Death Guard. Other "loyal" marines from the traitor chapters are occassionally (rarely) sprinkled in, like the World Eater in Battle for the Abyss (who incidently was the best part of that book IMO heh). It's also conjectured in the old Index Astartes that the Cursed Founding was probably tampered with (Fabulous Billy style), ie: they did stuff they weren't supposed to on purpose for one reason or another. So, it's entirely possible for the Minotaurs to have a traitor legion founder, or a mixed geneseed that includes them (just look at the heavy Thousand Sons progenitor hints for Blood Ravens).

*Gaint Spoiler Alert* Don't read if you are a fan of the Black Library Audio Books and don't want to spoil two of them......

The audio book from BL points to Garro creating a group of Marines with a stylized "I" and made up of marines from Loyalist and well as Traitor marines. So he did not directly have a had in the Minators, and since they are part of the 21st founding "cursed founding" that was a significant amount of time after the 2nd founding directly after the Battle of Terra. I would go with the idea that someone did indeed decide it might be an idea to use some of the "reserve" gene seed from the Traitor Legions. The Legions of course where much larger than the present day Chapters and they where formed from both men of Terra and then men from the home word of the Primarch ounce he was re-united with the Emperor.

You could make a good case that the Minators where formed from World Eater seed... (very agressive and close combat oriented)

Blood Ravens from Thousand Sons (high number of Psi users)

Executioners from Night Lords (never held territory and used terror tactics)

Also we know that samples of seed are sent for purity testing from each Chapter to Terra and so there are samples stored for each current Chapter and extra seed is grown to be able to replace losses. Storm of Iron is a great novel to ilistrate this point (personal bias obviously....)

Finally, based on the History of the Crimson Fists it is very possible for only 100 Marines to recreate a Chapter strength of 1000 eventually so the survivors of the Loyal Death Guard (not nececarily Garro) could have continued to serve the Emperor (if not killed in their moon prison....) so in the end you have reason to go any direction you would like. That is really the great thing about the "missing pieces" in the Cannon. Makes for a lot of fun and that is what matters most.

Ditto on the Part 1 and 2 FW Books - anyone that wants to see how awesome it is for Marine to pair off against Marine and how each chapter follows it's only path from the Codex would love to read them for sure.

Yeah, my impression of Garro and the other survivors was that they became the seeds for the Grey Knights and/or Deathwatch. The organizations may not have existed yet, but they were the roots.

Sorry to do a bit of forum necromancy, but I've been thinking about this chapter a bit recently...

The more I think about it, the more I think Crisaron's hit the nail on the head: the Iron Warriors are a much better fit than the Death Guard. The paranoia, siege specialty, tendency towards bitter rivalry with fellow marines, even the prediliction for brutal short range assaults, (as part of a wider siege specialty) all fits.

From a thematic point of view as well, Minotaurs are creatures that lurk in labyrinths, intricate constructions designed to act as deathtraps to ensnare visitors... and the Iron Guard used to build a lot of such constructions. No evidence for that point, of course, just a certain thematic sympathy between the two...

But as well, thinking (overthinking) it through further, the Minotaur's geneseed is described as "chimaeric" suggesting a mixture of geneseed from two (or more sources.) How would this work?

Do some marines within the chapter bear the geneseed of one primarch, while others bear the geneseed of another?

Or is the nature of chimaeric geneseed more fundamental? Does each marine in the chapter descend in part from two or more primarchs, with the geneseed of each primarch merged together to create a new genetic template for the geneseed?

And if the Minotaurs descend (somehow) from two or more Legions, which legions are they? The Iron Warriors seem a strong fit, but what other geneseed sources could they be relying upon?

From a quick google search, the interweb seems to believe that there are a number of potential candidates: World Eaters, Imperial Fists, Dark Angels and even the Ultramarines.

Any thoughts?

Another bone for you, the Wolfs have worked before on removing the cursed aelix from their geneseed, this coudl have been a similar thing. They are animalistic, violent, like to hang under a big montain maybe?

Cheameric also means they merged the geneseed of two different sources through genetic manipulation... So two different chapter is possible. Have fun with permutation!

Then again the Iron Warriror have found a way to create "generic" traitor marine from various geneseed, could be the same here or it coudl be that the Iron warriro geneseed is Chimeric in nature and allows them to create many "Space Marine" by fusing their own geneseed or a tiny part with another to create an Iron Wariror...

Fluff is fun

crisaron said:

One idea that I had, although I will be the first to admit that I don't really have a full grasp on the 40k universe, is that if Iron Warrior/Death Guard geneseed were used in the creation of the Minotaurs then maybe they also used loyalist geneseed to balance the traitor one in the case of a chimeric work. Just a thought that might be wrong, but there it is anyway.

Gurkhal said:

Good call, Gurkhal. Makes sense!

Or maybe even the other way around? Perhaps they used traitor geneseed to balance out flaws in loyalist geneseed?

There's tithed loyalist geneseed that's presumably been stacking up over the centuries that goes unused because it's from founding legions with genetic flaws: Blood Angels, Space Wolves etc. Perhaps the Adeptus Terra has decided to use some of this geneseed, but has added a few genetic markers from other legions to correct the flaws? One would imagine that they'd start with loyalist legions first - perhaps by trying to correct some of the deficiencies in Blood Angel Geneseed by adding genetic markers from the Ultramarines, for example. But perhaps this didn't work, and the geneseed tampering didn't take...so they work their way through the other stocks of geneseed, finally - in desperation - trying some traitor stocks kept on ice since the Great Crusade. And discovering that it works well...

Gurkhal said:

Never actually thought of blending geneseeds that but Crisarion and Gurkhal do bring up a valid points. Only the High Lords of Terra themselves know when a Chapter will be founded. Possessing geneseed material from all original 20 Chapters, its possible for the mechanicus to create hybrids.

I find the point of blending the geneseed to compensate for weaknesses and using loyalist geneseed to balance traitor geneseeds. Sharing similar traits isn't 100% grounds for stating that a particular chapter is a successor of one of the founding chapters. Its also possible that chapters having "hybrid geneseed" may also display traits of their own. Displaying similar traits to a traitor chapter may just be coincidental.

Official sources will want to keep the founding of the chapters like Blood Ravens a mystery. It may well be because the allure of the chapter who do not know their Primarch of origin. Then again it could be due to Geneseed material of the two Primarchs that were never found after being scattered to the warp. Bottom line, GW will not release anything on their history so anything discuss is just pure speculation.

I'm honestly not sure if there'd be so much of a stigma against Traitor Legion Geneseed that it's use would be completely ruled out. I wouldn't be surprised if the High Lords didn't try it out a few times, even just as experimentation.

And as I understand it, part of the OOC reason for Chapters like the Blood Ravens and Storm Wardens having mysterious origins is because it makes them easier to fit in, and leaves things more open for the fans to interpret how they wish. I know I like the idea that the Storm Wardens are descended from the White Scars, due in part to their penchant for mobile assaults.

I dunno, Blood Pact, I think if word got a round that a marine chapter was definitely formed from Traitor geneseed, it wouldn't be long before other Marine Chapters and/or Puritan Inquisitors were lining up to take that Chapter down.

I agree that such behaviour would be irrational (after all, plenty of loyalist First Founding chapters have successors who've fallen to chaos too) but I suspect it would happen. I also agree that the traitor genestocks are likely to be a valuable resource, and could probably be used fairly safely, but I do feel that the immense stigma against their use will probably preclude it happening very much.That's why Gurkhal's suggestion that the Traitor Genessed is used chimerically only in balance with loyalist geneseed is so interesting.

Bear in mind that the High Lords are also probably quite historically minded individuals who are rather nervous about the Astartes at the best of times, given that if there was a massive Astartes rebellion against the Imperium, they'd be very much in the firing line.

And yeah, it's clear that the writers of 40k LOVE inserting deliberate ambiguity into the setting, constantly dropping deliberate hints of all sorts of strange goings on that are then endlessly debated about: this thread is just one example! I agree that definitively answering any of these points would annoy the fans who enjoy their own interpretation of the ambiguity, too. That's why good 40k writing is very open...every time it answers one question, it poses two more.

The Minotaur chapter seems to have ties with the High Lords of Terra and seem to be used to against other chapters. Most likely a counter point to organizations such as Deathwatch, Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle.