signoftheserpent said:

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse. Deathwatch - THE RPG - is the subject here. Eldar do not belong in Deathwatch (yet) because FFG have chosen not to include them.

I wasn't talking about Deathwatch the galaxy-spanning military organisation, and you **** well knew that.

Honestly...

The fact that Eldar aren't in the game seems to be being repeated only as much as 'why aren't Eldar in the game?' is being repeated (and saying 'why is this relic in the game when Eldar aren't?' is just yet another way of repeating the same question). I think that the question has been answered at least 15 times by now, from varying angles. Perhaps at this point it might be a good idea to write to FFG and ask them directly?

As to 'Eldar should be in every 40k game'... Erm...do you want an Eldar Space Hulk expansion? Necromunda? Gorkamorka? Clearly Eldar do not belong in every game, because not every game is set where there are Eldar under every rock. And as to RPGs, it's nobody's place to announce what 'should' be in every GM's game.

Face Eater said:

And that's fine.

Why? Because that game's story, which is what we are referring to (i don't know how the multiplery part works), is one adventure.

I have not suggested that people include eldar in every DW adventure anymore than I have said that every GM MUST use eldar at all - it is their choice.

There's the difference.

Siranui said:

That is precisely what i've said.

YOu criticise me but you don't actually read what i've said. I've made it very clear, several times, that the provision of eldar material doesn't mean GM's are obliged to use it anymore than the provision of tyranid, chaos or tau information.

And it has been replied that FFG had choices to make, and that they probably felt that they needed to expand the three major threats in the Jericho Reach instead of covering any foe that may wander in the surroundings, because the size of a book is not infinite and they have a format to respect.

If you disagree, well, that's something nobody can forbid you. What was said is just that the choice is not as idiotic as you seem to see it. If you want to know more, then the best thing to do would be to contact FFG, they're quite cool when answering, so I'm sure if you ask your question you'll get an answer.

Maybe not satisfying, maybe not life-changing, but eh. Anyway, what's done is done, the book's not gonna change because anyone is angry about its contents.

Without meaning to add fuel to fire, one thing I would like to add is that DW like most rpg's does, or at least should have the usual caviat in it that "this is what we have done, if you don't like it change it". I would imagine many players would like to set a game elsewhere, other than the JR and they should not be ignored. While several other books have some eldar stuff in them, their does seem to be a difference between the stats for DH and those for DW, with a bit of effort they could be bumped up a bit to make them suitable for DW. I imagine the enemies book for RT will have a fair bit for eldar.

To play devils advacate though, the books are not cheap and to have to buy DH and RT books to have access to eldar, which you then have to bump up anyway could be seen as questionable to someone who just wants to play DW.

To play devil's advocate on you playing devil's advocate; no purchase is required. #1's net-published work is far superior to the Eldar iterations in other FFG products.

Saying 'it's not there, I want it, but I don't want to write it myself and I don't want to pay for it or wait for FFG to print it somewhere' already has a blindingly obvious solution.

I think we're not really going to get any farther than we have on the Eldar discussion. It's fairly obvious at this point that almost everybody understands and accepts why Eldar are not present in this book. I would like to second Kain's question for anybody that has the book, are the weapons in line with the optional rules in the 1.1 Errata, or will we need to look for a 1.2 Errata to include the weapons from MoX?

TorogTarkdacil said:

are you referring to the Children of the Kingdom from the Dark Heresy Haarlock's Legacy adventure Tattered Fates? are they referred to too in Deathwatch material?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that a 40k rpg based around fighting a range of alien enemies would include one of the most prominent alien races in the setting. If I were a more cynical person I would suspect that FFG held back the Eldar from MoX so as to make the Xenos Compendium for RT more appealing as a purchase. However unless it outdoes N0-1_H3r3 's excellent Eldar web supplement I doubt I'll get myself.

MikeN said:

It does, there are 3 chapters dedicated to Tau, Tyranids, and Chaos.

Siranui said:

Balodek said:

Guys can we please move on with some actual teasers about the goodness in the book please?

H.B.M.C. said:

Okay, but there are a number of people who are running DW outside of the Jericho Reach.

Alex

Balodek said:

signoftheserpent said:

That's fair, although they are one of the major antagonists of the setting.

signoftheserpent said:

Excellent point, I hadn't taken that into consideration.

ak-73 said:

But it isn't reasonable to expect FFG to support them right out of the gate is it? Especially in a Jericho Reach specific book? I personally like what AEG has done with L5R 4th edition and Paizo does with their Pathfinder line. They have one set of books for their setting, and other books that are generic to the rules without containing timeline or setting specific fluff.

signoftheserpent said:

Well, RoB included house rules that got debated here in Sept./Oct. so it's possible. I don't expect FFG to maintain two sets of stats but to develop further new weapons based on the optional stats. Learning curve and all that.

Alex

Balodek said:

But we don't know for sure and perhaps FFG had the new optional weapon rules under the shelve for some time and only released them now so they would match the stats in MoX.

We DO know it if someone who already owns this book would be so kind and answer this tiny little question, with yes or no, please!

But I would guess the next 10 posts will be about why-aren't-there-any-Eldar/Dark Eldar-in-MoX-FFG-is-grabbing-money.

So that's a no then?

Balodek said:

signoftheserpent said:

We've outlined several good reasons why already, at this point you're just trolling for the sake of trolling and I'm not going to contribute any further.

Just got notice that my copy is shipping today so I look forward to using some of the goodies in here on my players next week.

signoftheserpent said:

Except that the Eldar apparently do not maintain a significant presence in the Jericho Reach, unlike the Koronus Expanse (where the Eldar are present in a variety of forms, and consequently a significant faction within the Rogue Trader setting). Just because the Eldar are older than Chaos within the setting doesn't give them some sort of mystical precedence when it comes to whether or not they should be included in a product, otherwise every novel, computer game and other licenced product set in the 40k universe would have to include the Necrons because they're older than everything else within the setting.

It may not be a reason you're willing to accept, but it's a reason.

I'm a fan of the Eldar; they were my first army in 40k, so many years ago, and I maintain (in some form, where time permits) Eldar forces in 40k, Epic and Battlefleet Gothic... I've always been a fan of the Eldar... and I don't see an absolute, pressing, life-or-death need for the Eldar to be present in the Jericho Reach. To be honest, I don't feel that Craftworld Warhosts have a place within that setting, given that the setting's focus is a territorial crusade (where Chaos, Tyranids and the Tau are all far more appropriate adversaries - the first because they often claim territory lost to the Imperium, the second because they pose a threat to Imperial territory, and the third because they're opportunistic expansionists who'll claim any world they come across).

And the thing is, as vehemently as you are arguing this point, I absolutely guarantee that if the Tyranids or the Tau or the forces of Chaos had been excluded to make room for the Eldar, somebody else would be moaning just as loudly about it - whether about their chosen faction being kept out of the books, or about there being too much Eldar stuff because they've turned up in Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch.

It's easy to do your own stuff, or to use the material already produced by other fans. It's not "easier" for professional writers to do it (it is, in fact, slightly harder - fan/homemade material can be written to fit your own personal preferences and has room to expand indefinitely, in as much or as little detail as you want, whenever you want... an official sourcebook is written under stricter conditions, the most significant of which are the limitations of word count and page count, deadlines, the purpose of a given book, and so forth). Trust me on this, as I've seen both sides of the situation (having produced a reasonable amount of fan material in my own time, and having contributed to several 40kRP sourcebooks). Contrary to your adamant belief, it is not a simple matter to just churn out a full-colour hardback book containing every enemy that everyone could ever possibly want or need ever, as you seem to so frequently demand.

Consider that the Eldar rules I've written take up more than 18,000 words - approximately 23 pages, going by FFG's standard layout, assuming the normal quantity of art - and it is neither particularly detailed nor does it cover the full range of potential Eldar enemies, and it certainly doesn't have the quantity of support material (background, plot hooks, GM advice, etc) I'd expect from an official book, which collectively could easily double that word count. Now, repeat that for every faction - more than 36,000 words per faction on each of the Eldar, Orks, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons (both are large factions, it's appropriate to consider them separately here) and Necrons, before considering Imperial NPCs or other servants of Chaos not counted as Chaos Marines or Daemons. That's easily a book bigger than any one of the core rulebooks just spent translating across armylist entries. Such a tome takes a large number of writers and artists to produce, and it cannot be done quickly, nor can it be done cheaply, and during that production time, it will be taking up resources and attention that could otherwise be spent on other books...