Q3 Xenos Compendium for RT will have: "Xenos Compendium is a comprehensive collection of countless horrifying denizens of the Koronus Expanse. From the Rak’Gol to the Yu’vath, Orks, Eldar, Daemons, and monsters from countless worlds, Xenos Compendium provides the details necessary to defend yourself"

Yes, it would be stupid if FFG never put out info for Eldar. However, the lines are somewhat compatible for a reason. They divided the settings so they wouldn't have to reprint the same stats over and over again. I just hope the few orks in Mark of the Xenos are suitably different from the ones in RT Core.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Sweeeet, TVM Dude.

That's a solid block pretty much fills out the 3 main adversairie armies. Even some Orks, those tinkers get everywhere so I'm not massively surprised. And lots of the background non army stuff to surprises long time players.

Sidenote, you notice how Noise Marines, Plague Marines and Khorne Berserkers can be any Legion these days (God permitting ofc) but Thousand Sons are still Thousand Sons, which is why they weren't included I guess.

I'm also of the opinion that they made the right decision to keep Eldar out of it. All of the big 40K have their own agenda's and goals. You can write a story that happens to have enough very specific goals that are all forces are involved (like later DoW expansions) but this feels very forced, and the more of **** up warzone a place is already the more likely the Eldar are to stay out of it.

Plus of course, of all of the 40K rpgs, RT is far better setting for them than DW, where you are likely to come across all manner of corsairs and even have a chance to have direct dealings with those treacherous skinnies. In DW they'd be just another horde in different looking armour.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well: Looks like you're holding your title as the go-to man for Eldar stats, then!

T Face Eater said:

RT maybe a better fit for your games. THat's your choice.

I don't understand how it can ever be the right decision to keep the eldar out of any 40k game. YOU can choose to leave them out, which is entirely fine. But a commercial rpg should give you the choice, not dictate things. All the reasons that people can give that the Eldar shouldn't be in the JR can be countered by other people that think the opposite.

So the question then becomes: wouldn't it be better to include more of the official canon and let players choose what they want? I might not want tyrnaids, but i might want eldar. Why does FFG deny me that choice in a game where both are prominent canon elements.

It does seem a bit odd to invent a wormhole shortcut to way over the other side of the galaxy just to shoehorn in the Tau, only to then leave out the Eldar.

signoftheserpent said:

You do understand that they're not excluding the Eldar? And that they can't publish everything all at once? Why would they publish one book with everything you'd need, and then you'd never buy anything from them again. As others have pointed out, there are other books that have Eldar, why would they publish multiple books with the same thing, given the cost of publishing today?

It's a bit disingenuous to say you don't understand why they wouldn't give you more choices, then reject out of hand the choices they give you. Why would you exclude Tyranids from your campaign? After all, they are canon, so it makes sense that you really shouldn't be allowed to run a game that doesn't include Tyranids. Tyranids are prominent in the Jericho Reach, Eldar are not, and that is both the answer to your question and the reason your argument is flawed.

signoftheserpent said:

You can choose to include the Eldar in any part of the 40k universe you want... all that you're lacking is a set of Eldar stats in a Deathwatch book, which are really not difficult to put together (as I've demonstrated by putting together rules for a wide variety of Eldar troop types in my spare time just because I could, which I subsequently posted online for people to use if they wanted). It simply requires imagination, a reasonable knowledge of the setting and rules, and a little effort, or the patience to wait for someone else online to do it first (an increasingly viable option in this day and age).

Books are not infinite in size, and cannot contain as much content as you seem to think they should. Every page spent on one subject is several hundred words that could have been used for something else, and while you might not care about some elements, that doesn't make them worthless wastes of space... it simply means they're not to your liking.

Balodek said:

I think they could easily publish all at once. A sourcebook the size of the corebook could easily cover the factions of the setting.

Of course you could sell more content: FFG have already created the precedent of creating their own stuff which is an endless mine.

And indeed you shouldn't have to repeat material from book to book; i don't agree it's a good idea and I don't think it would have been necessary. That's a matter of planning.

I haven't rejected any of the choices given. I fully intend to buy MoX and I fully expected it to be the kind of book it is because that's the pattern FFG have established. I tihnk you've missed the point i made; it's not that i don't want tyranids it's on the basis of the established premise of the setting. That's why i made the point regarding eldar over chaos. However there is a point to be made when you are choosing to exclude content: the eldar offer more possibilities than the tyranids who are really only good for a limited scope of adventures. Conversely the Eldar are fundamental to the setting in almost every way and not only are they easier to relate to on a personal level, but they can also work with the Imperium as well as against it (the tau also to a lesser degree).

We can argue it either way till the cows come home. But every argument has an equal counter argument. The question is: what is the best approach.

And yes, I can create my own Eldar (and indeed will), but the point of buying an rpg is that you are paying someone else to do this. And if it's easy for the players to do this, then it should be a doddle for FFG

signoftheserpent said:

This is a logical fallacy, as not all views are equal or valid. You claim the Eldar are fundamental to the system without supporting it, and change your argument to avoid confronting this simple fact. The Eldar are not included because FFG has not written the Eldar into the Jericho Reach. While this does not exclude the possibility that they will introduce them, it doesn't mean they have to include them at this time.

It isn't even as easy as you claim to just add them. There is a multi-page discussion on these boards about whether a bolter fires 3 shots or 4. Can you imagine how much work it would be to introduce an entire new race, especially one as complicated as the Eldar. In fact one could point out that the inclusion of the Tyranids is done to give both FFG and GMs a race of xenos that are not overly complicated.

Publishing a book as large as the core rules to contain every xenos race in the galaxy is a bad idea on multiple levels. No matter how complete they tried to make it things would be missing. They would have to publish more books, which people might not buy because they feel they already own the complete xenos book. What about rules changes, or creating new rules to balance and learn from their mistakes? Easily done in a short splat book, harder to do when you only need to make one change and you don't have enough material to justify a new book yet.

Also, the core rules are easy to print that large because that is the book people need to buy to play the game. Investing that much money into a xenos book doesn't make sense, people might not buy it. This would be a large risk on the part of FFG. This is why you will continue to see smaller xenos books that dole out information on the races people want to see and slowly add more additional races.

Balodek said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees this happening.

signoftheserpent said:

Oh, are we back on this argument again where you want all the 40k adversaries in a giant monster manual? Publishing isn't as simple as you make it sound, and pleasing all customers isn't that easy either. Send mail to FFG if you want to know why they weren't included in the Reach.

signoftheserpent said:

I think a fair number of people actually agree with you here, but you also have to remember the precedent set by DH and the changes that FFG made when they took over the line. Maybe when we see the next edition they'll publish a core rulebook and then splat books, who knows.

signoftheserpent said:

Exactly, and I don't think a smattering of forumites is going to really make that call for FFG, their sales and marketing department will. I disagree with you that Eldar offer more possibilities than Tyranids, you just have to be more creative with your adventure planning. Tyranids offer all kinds of opportunities dealing from full planetary invations, spliter fleets, genestealer cults, rogue inquisitors or biologis folks doing wierd things with them, etc.

I can't disagree that the Eldar can fill the whole ally/adversary role in addition to being all self-important and aloof where Tyranids can't, but that doesn't make them an overall more limited plot device.

The comment that was made about the DoW games is quite apt here – the more races you try to shoe-horn into a single setting, especially when your best reason is a rather nebulous ‘ because they should be there!!! ’, then you’ll end up in a situation like the final Dawn of War expansion, Soul Storm.

That game was set on group of three planets where we had the Blood Ravens, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Chaos and the Necrons (!) all fighting for it. It was too forced that all these disparate races would be in the same spot, and this is why FFG chose to take the more reasonable/realistic choice of limiting the adversaries to a number that made sense.

(As an aside, putting the Tau into anything is difficult enough given that they’re such a tiny empire on the opposite side of the galaxy to the rest of the 40K RPG’s settings, so the Warp Gate was a necessity.)

I’ve said it already a couple of times in this thread, but the Jericho Reach is a setting that provides context for games. It has a specific scope to it and things that fit within its boundaries. To repeat myself – if you’re not using the Jericho Reach as you’re setting, then ok, you’re going to run into problems, but FFG make their supplements to cater to the standard game and not every eventuality that might come about due to someone wanting to play in their homebrew sector. So your own campaign might be set in the Eldar breeding capital of the universe, but FFG only write books that fit with their setting, and their setting is the Eldar-free Jericho Reach. Shoe-horning Eldar into the setting just so you have the ‘choice’ of using them is daft and goes against this context-based setting that FFG have created. Are Eldar important to 40K? Yes. Are they important to the Jericho Reach? No (or, at least, not yet).

All of this could change in the future – none of us know what FFG have planned – but for the time being Mark of the Xenos expands upon the three major adversaries that are present within the setting they created (Tyranids, Chaos & Tau) as well as adding a few little fun things (teleporting space crocodiles, the sheer awesomeness that is Magos Phayzarus) and giving us some basic bare-bones stats for 40K’s most ubiquitous race (the Orks). If/when the Eldar show up in the Reach I’m sure FFG will do them justice and provide lots of meaty stats for us to use.

In the meantime though the Eldar don’t belong in Deathwatch.

H.B.M.C. said:

They aren't an addition by FFG, actually - the Croatalid first appeared in Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader back in 1987, alongside other notable creatures such as Groxen, Pterasquirrels, and the Catachan Barking Toad.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I need to make sure my wife doesn't see this thread or she'll want to play one. **** crazy paleontologists...

This may contain spoilers, so please be wary.

1. There are several key Eldar craftworlds mobile in the eastern fringe such as Iyanden and Malantai! Both of whom actively battle several eastern galaxy hive fleets.

2. Chances are that with the warp stprms gone that one or more of these craftworlds will at some time pass through the Jericho Reach

3. The Warpgate might be of ancient Eldar origin and even if not is likely dating back to the 'war in heaven' and so likely something the eldar would claim or fight over, and it's not something they'd likely leave working if it threatens their plans for the galaxy as hive fleet dagon pouring through to the western side of the galaxy surely would.

4. The Eldar may be the creators of the Omega Vault, with their predictive powers, manipulation of future events and the fact that ancient eldar stations have been claimed by the imperium before (blackstone fortresses) and even if they aren't the culprits the Eldar would not ignore anything so important, after all their battles are as much about directing future events as anything else, so they will want to have a hand in these events in some way.

5. It's quite possible some worlds in the reach may once have been Eldar worlds and may then be attacked because of this or because of meddling with Eldar artifacts.

6. The Eldar may be the creators of the Tau Ethereals and likely are keeping a close eye on the Tau even if they didn't create them.

7. Eldar Rangers spread before the path of craftworlds and through the galaxy so rangers likely will be found in the Jericho Sector.

8. There is a serious amount of Chaos forces in the Jericho Reach. This will have got the attention of the Harlequins, the Phoenix Lords and the Guardians of the Black Library as they battle their endless doomed battle eternal against the final end.

9. The Eldar are Xenos, automatically under the remit of the deathwatch. They belong in the game more than Chaos does.

10. The Eldar are included in black library work featuring the deathwatch

11. The Dark Eldar raid all over the place. Eldar Corsairs do too, and Yriels Raiders, the most famous of the Eldar Corsair fleets, should be the scourge of imperial shipping and chaos fleets across the eastern galaxy right now following the princes exile and before his return when Kraken attacks the Iyanden craftworld. Yriels Raiders certainly would enter the reach at times plundering imperial ships and hunting chaos ships. Again the high volume of chaos in the reach would ensure an Eldar forces involvement.

12. The Dark Eldar love using Tyranids in their arenas, and with Behemoth gone and Kraken yet to attack the only source of Tyranids is.... Hive Fleet Dagon and the Jericho Reach! So the Dark Eldar WILL be in the reach!

13. The Eldar are already mentioned in the FF deathwatch stuff

14. The mention we have is a relic the GM may give a player where Eldar WILL attack the bearer, an Eldar-magnet item is of little use to the GM if there are no Eldar to attack the players with, sure some skilled gm's can make their own, port over ones from other games and beef them up to become a challenge adequate to their players but not every GM is so skilled. So many GMs need eldar rules.

15. Even if all the first 12 points wee.re ignorable the relic ensures that some eldar will be in the reach if only to claim the relic in question, just as it's said they have done in the past, so therefore there WILL be Eldar in the reach Q.E.D.

16. The Eldar, like the Tau, are powerful but also not neatly classed as evil, like the Tau the possibility of cooperation to fight the Tyranid exists creating a challenge to players beyond just hacking and blasting.

Nice discussion, but pointless!

As I've to wait until my copy arrives, can anyone who already owns MotX can tell me what's in and not what should be in there? I'm interested in the weapon stats. Are they based on the new optional rules (more Semi-Automatic RoF less Automatic) or is there an optional weapons table?

But to be agood sport, Dark Eldar would've been nice and for the Eldar I think they get their big appearance in the future of the Jericho Reach.

That's all well and good BattyBats , and none of what you say is wrong, but the fact remains:

Eldar are not part of Deathwatch. They are not present in any appreciable form within the Jericho Reach and thus are not represented via the rules. This could change in the future (assuming FFG choose to do so), but for the time being there are no Eldar rules because there are no Eldar (no matter how good or how legitimate your reasoning).

Eldar are not a major part of the setting in which FFG have built their campaign. They may be there, but as a relatively minor antagonist, who will feature in 1-2 scenarios in a campaign.

Eldar are complex creatures that are specialised combatants and cover a wide variety of weapons as equipment. It's not like you can stat an Eldar troop type, an Elite and a Master. To do the Eldar justice requires 30+ pages... all for a minor antagonist. Not really worth it, is it?

And I suspect that FFG's thinking is that if GMs are going off-piste enough to change the campaign setting and make Eldar major players, then that kind of GM is not going to mind knocking up some stats.

Balodek said:

Balodek said:

No i said they were fundamental to the setting, which is obvious to anyone that is familiar with the history of the setting. The fall of the Eldar created notonly the Dark Eldar but also Slaanesh. They are ancient and fundamentally opposed to chaos for this reason. They represent aspects of the setting that would be foolish to ignore. Tyranids, for example, don't.

I don't understand why you feel it necessary to continue repeating that the eldar don't exist in the JR because FFG have said so. That much is obvious (even if it's already been contradicted by evidence presented elsewhere in this thread).

You are continually trying to fidn reasons why FFG - in a 40k game - should exclude fundamental elements of that setting. Again, if you don't want eldar in your game then don't have them. Why should - or even why would - FFG make that decision for me?

Balodek said:

If it's easy for people to create their own Eldar rules, then it's no problem for the people paid to do that for a living. Really that's a poor excuse.

H.B.M.C. said:

I'm sorry but that just makes no sense. The DW is the Space Marine faction tasked with fighting Xenos. Eldar are Xenos. That argument holds no water.

Rites of Battle p.160-161

The Rememberance Shield.

I won't type the entry out, suffice to say that it's a pretty pointless Relic to have in a setting where Eldar aren't present at all.

Ok, so Eldar shouldn't be in the JR nor in your games of DW - so why include the thing?

Yet you're not trying.

He's talking about Deathwatch , not THE Deathwatch.

Of course, if there are Eldars cruising nearby, the Deathwatch, as the chamber militant of the Ordo Xenos, is quite clearly going to go kick their bottoms.

The thing, here, is that Deathwatch , the RPG written by FFG, does not have Eldars cruising nearby. Unless a GM decides to have them do so, which he has any right to do so.

Nobody denies you the right to want Eldars in your stories. Nobody said Eldars weren't that old, or were Chaos worshippers, or were useless to the setting, or anything you're throwing at us.

What was said, however, was that in the present time, in the Deathwatch (the RPG, not the organisation) setting, there were no Eldars nearby, and therefore no need for stats for them.

What's more, you didn't even take into account the arguments about the size of books and the fact that you can't put everything in it and choices have to be made.

You disapprove, OK, that's your right, but don't go around shouting that anybody who approves is a mindless idiot when all your arguments, while not untrue, are completely off in the discussion.

PS: Yes, we know about that Relic...But you're just being an obvious troll here.

Can we please quit it with the citing of logical fallacies and strawmen? This isn't GITP or Logic 101: This is a conversation.

Stormast said:

We know full well that Eldar aren't in the game. That's painfully obvious, even if you didn't feel the need to repeat it every two seconds in the most patronising way possible.

You are still missing the point: why is game content included that has no function because the people it works on are not supported by the game.

Your attitude's a joke. I've been more than fair with the ridiculous comments made on here by people that, for no other reason than the sake of argument it seems, want to argue that the sky is green and grass is blue. Eldar should be in every 40k game. There is no good reason why they shouldn't be. That they are excluded from a game that, not only includes things that key off of them, but is about the very people that deal with them is a massive error of judgement.

You dont like that because you feel threatened by it. But if you want the gloves to come off and you want to be rude and condescending then deal with the truth of it.

signoftheserpent said:

I'd just answer "lol" here but I suppose the forums won't let me.

It's funny because I really don't see how my quoted message can be rude, except for the last sentence maybe. But I could as well complain that you're being rude and not listening to what the others have to say.

Less ad hominem , moar arguments. I'll admit that the "troll" line wasn't clever if you wish, but don't act like you weren't looking for it.

signoftheserpent said:

signoftheserpent said:

Well Eldar won't be in the new Space Marine game from THQ.

There's no Dark Eldar listed either, I'm sure their are plenty of people that lament their exclusion, if you replaced the Tau or Tyranids with Eldar, their would be Tau and Nid fans that would be livid (I certainly wouldn't be happy to have DW game without Nids).

They created a believable setting for the game, to try and map the whole galaxy allow you to play anywhere with any degree of depth, is physically impossible. The galaxy of 40K is ridiculously varied, for every army list entry theirs a hundreds monsters, xenos or human faction, every world is vastly different, no two hive worlds are the same even.

So in any game they've had to use a specific area that they can describe and no sector contains a convenient mix of the the TT 40k races, to write it as such is just unbelievable, these races, after all are all trying to kill each other 90% of the time. So they've created a sector that doesn't have an Eldar presence (probably why they took that relic there), if you want to set it somewhere else so you can have Eldar that's fine, but you have to do the work for it.