Thank you, Nathan, for taking the time to put once again things nicely, because I really could have been "rude" here.

Moving on to really interesting questions, I must ask that one, too: to those who have the chance of reading MotX, do you feel like the stats blocs are adapted to the optional errata'ed weapons, or were they made for the original ones? That's something I'd like to know, too And of course it seems like the schedule was too tight, but you never know, I don't think they came up with the optional weapons stats in one day ^^

N0-1_H3r3 said:

A book covering all the non-imp factions could easily be done and wouldn't need to be bigger than the core rulebook format. Easily. There is absolutely no reason why that's not possible.

And it doesn't even need to include EVERY piece of info for those factions. You only need to have the most important stuff, the rest can be followed up later. DW doesn't have every space marine chapter, it has enough.

Again these are all excuses. There is no good reason why eldar are not part of the JR setting. Especially in a game that already makes use of them (the relic that's been mentioned). Where was FFG's editing and continuity when that was being proposed?

I like this game, but that's in spite of some pretty glaring errors in judgement. There is simply no reason, at all, why Eldar can't be covered. In fact i'd argue they should take precedence over stuff FFG make up, like diablodons or the other FFG-created Jericho Reach xeno material. I'm sure it's all wonderful, but the priority has to go to established material. Once you've done that then go for it and if it's as good as some people suggest then it's going to sell as well.

If FFG omit the Eldar from the one game above all else where they are most appropriate (ie DW) then there is something very wrong in their decision making. I'm not here to knock FFG for the sake of criticism, but seriously what 40k game ignores the Eldar?

Official FFG Announcement:

All Copies of Mark of the Xenos will be called back as some of our customers noticed, we didn't include any Eldar/Dark-Eldar material. Our team will get back to work and try to fit this into the exciting background of the Jericho Reach. We hope the new complete product will hit the streets Winter 2011/Fall 2012!

This is a joke of course, but it shows how useless this whole discussion is. What did you try to achieve by whining over some missing content, shortly after the first copies became available? It makes sense to discuss the content of the Living Errata, because it's living and every input can make it into new rules, but the missing Eldar are something for a wishlist.

Here is the place to show some teasers and discuss the adversaries that were printed not the ones who weren't. I've almost given up on my weapon-question and will wait until I get my copy, but what is the overall impression of the new baddies? Are they more balanced (tougher) than the ones from the Corebook, are the Orks only cannon-fodder (Horde), do Tyranids get Anti-Armor-Weapons? Everything is interesting but please:

NO MORE ELDAR STORIES!

ak-73 said:

signoftheserpent said:

You're still missing the point.

Deathwatch (the RPG) is not a game about the Deathwatch all over the Emperor's galaxy, fighting aliens and taking names. Deathwatch (the organisation) is about that. Deathwatch (the RPG) is about the ongoing struggles within the Jericho Reach, and as of right now the Eldar have no notable presence within the Jericho Reach and thus are not included.

There is no 'general NPC/adversary book' because FFG write supplements that fit within the context of their chosen setting. They could do a massive Xenos book filled with every alien, every troop type, every vehicle and every weapon that's ever been written for 40K, but that does not fit with the setting of the Jericho Reach.

How many times must this be hammered in?

BYE

As an actual question for those who have the book, can you please post the stats for:

Sonic Blaster
Blast Master
Doom Siren

My group are interested to see how they came out in the end...

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Yep and that's why you can see dissent wrt that approach expressed here.

Alex

ak-73 said:

H.B.M.C. said:

Nobody here has any trouble understanding anything though. Just because I understand something doesn't mean I have to like it. Nor that I have to keep my dislike to myself.

Alex

I'm still eagerly waiting till i can get this book even if it doesn't have eldar in it.

But I think it's quite fair for some of us to voice our opinions that FFG haven't made the best of decisions from our perspective in not including some eldar content in it, in the core book and in proper detail in the setting.

We know the Eldar ARE in the reach because they turn up from time to time to get the relic as mentioned before. Thats in a Canon document (rites of battle) so it's Q.E.D. that there are at least those Eldar at least some times in the reach and that FFG put them there. So please no more pointless 'they aren't in the setting' arguments because they are, even if thats all there is there are Eldar in the setting. Proven. It's a cool idea that relic, one i will certainly use in my games and one i think a lot of GMs will want to use. If these are the only Eldar in the reach then FFG really should have put their stats alongside the relic in rites of battle so GMs wanting to use the relic would have all the neccessary material available to them to make use of it .

It's a lot easier to argue that the Eldar should have more place in a deathwatch setting than Chaos. The eldar are a major force in the galaxy, they are far more common than tau, they are a major force in the eastern galaxy especially at this point in the timeline (unlike the necron) and they have always been a very significant and popular part of the WH40k universe! There's lots of reasons players and GMs may like to throw the non-xenos chaos in, but they are non-xenos. They are outside the reason, the rationale, the job of the deathwatch which is to fight the xenos threat. The inquisition already has a chapter to deal with chaos in the grey knights. The deathwatch is there for dealling with xenos, and xenos is what the eldar are. They predate the tau in the existence of the game, they are prevalant in that part of the galaxy, there's myriad reasons why GMs would want to use them and why rationally they make sense being in the game.

I'm happy to have some chaos in the game for the odd games where the players get dragged out of their usual job by neccessity or conflicted duty or where chaos is involved with xenos, but even with one crusade facing primarily chaos i'd want to have battles and encounters with Eldar and their machinations far more common for my players than with chaos who really are other forces job. I'd be far happier with this book if it had far less chaos in it and replaced that space with more major and minor xenos, but i'm still going to buy it ASAP.

I'm hoping that we will get a mark of the xenos 2 or other deathwatch product which will cover the eldar and more other races (Slaan, Hrud, Enslavers, Demiurg) as well as the stuff of the tyranids and tau that aren't on the tabletop (anymore in some cases) but which the deathwatch would assuredly face (Zoat rebels, Genestealer Cult forces like hybrids broodlord/patriarch and magi, tyranid mind-slavers etc) . The Malantai craftworld could be a good one to flesh out, and Iyanden could be shown at it's height and exodite eldar are just begging for some detailing. Clearly there's enough people here that would like (passionately want) eldar for deathwatch so there's a market for it. As it is i bought creatures anathema yesterday for some extra variety of things to throw at my players (and it cost me $83 at the local game store!) so MOTX i will snap up as soon as i can.

ak-73 said:

I'd say signofserpent is having a bit of trouble grasping the difference between Deathwatch (the organisation) and Deathwatch (the RPG).

And you can dislike it all you like, but you cannot deny the reasons for not having Eldar are sound, just as the reasons for not having Tyranids in RT are sound.



BattyBats:

But I think it's quite fair for some of us to voice our opinions that FFG haven't made the best of decisions from our perspective in not including some eldar content in it, in the core book and in proper detail in the setting.

As before, that's all well and good, and you, me or anyone may wish that the setting was different to what it currently is - that's fine - but you cannot realistically criticise MoX for not including Eldar when the Jericho Reach involves no significant Eldar forces and instead caters towards the established forces ('Nids, Chaos, Tau). You can criticise Deathwatch (the RPG) for not making a bigger deal of the Eldar from the outset, but until they change the setting or develop the setting to include Eldar in more significant numbers, what's done is done.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

I don't think the reasons for not having Eldar in DW are sound at all. The Tyranids alone would bring dark and craftworld eldar, the region of the galaxy contains several important craftworlds Malantai and most importantly the largest most populous craftworld Iyanden with its huge fleets and the great corsair exiled prince yriel. The serious swathe of chaos in the reach would also bring the chaos-fighting eldar. No big reason has been given that would keep the eldar out of the reach, and thats what would be needed for them logically not to be involved there. Sure with no craftworld inside the reach (presently) there should only be rangers, harlequins, probably a small single-phoenix-lord led aspect warrior force working against the chaos forces, dark eldar raiders, corsairs and the relic-recovery forces, craftworld strike forces ensuring Dagon doesn't threaten them in the future... and the absence of just one of those would be significant indeed, of all but one thats a really big deal! This isn't like other rpgs not having Tyranids when Tyranid hive fleets aren't in those parts of the galaxy yet, this is a part of the galaxy where several craftworlds traverse, where the biggest and most populous and most powerful of ALL the craftworlds is.

But we do have that one regardless of the lack of an answer to the mystery (even if the answer is that FFG haven't got around to them yet), those trying to recover the relic could have had a place in MOTX and giving GMs a nice basis for other Eldar should they wish it.

Now sure what's done is done. And i'm betting that MOTX is a darned good product like the other deathwatch books i've got so far (going by the two previews they gave us i'm sure it will be brilliant). It's appropriate for us to praise the good bits and criticise the bad, including what people feel are errors of omission. That way FFG may see what we think about it and respond in future products.

H.B.M.C. said:

H.B.M.C. said:

That difference is secondary though because if the game runs long enough, Eldar stats will appear in some book. And we know Eldar are in the Jericho Reach btw. There is an Eldar Harlequin appearing in once official mission after all.

That said I see why they don't appear in the first season of the product line.

Alex

signoftheserpent said:

signoftheserpent said:

Someone who actually works in the trade and writes for FFG is telling you that it isn't. They probably know about the subject in more depth that you do.

How about you write and tell them directly, instead of repeatedly making the same complaints to the audience?

I'd argue that new material has massive priority. We've had ten years of GW jerking us around, doing nothing new with the game or the timeline. FFG comes along and we now have THREE nicely detailed sectors, masses of new plot and plot teasers, and a bunch of NEW xenos races. What FFG have done with the 40k universe is excellent, and far more useful than just converting codexes into RPG stats for people who can't be bothered to do it themselves.

Siranui said:

How about you respect my opinion instead of continually accusing me of trolling. Complaining about lack of Xeno material in response to a book solely about xenos on the forum for the game that deals with xenos is precisely the right place to post and you have zero right to tell me what I can and cannot say. I don't do that to you, so show me the same courtesy.

It is peffectly possible to produce a book covering 7 antagonist factions. 50 pages per faction is 350 pages. The size of the DW book is almost 400. How then is that not possible? The warhammer codices are extremely short - and filled with pictures, photos and painting advice. Where is the problem? You are incorrect in saying they can't do this; clearly they don't want to.

40k isn't an open ended setting in canon terms. There are finite factions and finite resources within (units, gear, etc), all of which would be very easy to translate into the rpg.

New material isn't the priority: established canon material has to come first. There is no sensible alternative. If you don't want canon material, then you are wasting money buying a 40k game as you are clearly looking for something else. If you want to take canon material and twist it into your own thing, well, and again, that's entirely your choice as a gm. Whether GW are jerking you areound has nothing to do with it. The quality of FFG's own material is similarly not the issue.

But to actively argue against the inclusion of canon elements is completely irrational and those doing so are doing the product more harm than anyon arguing for the inclusion of, for example, Eldar. There isn't even a discussion as to what the Eldar are in the game. The only section on antagonists covers 3 factions with not even a cursory mention of the other forces in the universe.

You know, your arguments haven't changed,even if they've been answered. You're, like, trying to pin someone down with a sledgehammer even if he's moved on. So right now, what you're doing is being narrow-minded.

Have you ever worked in that business to tell us that what everyone else says is not possible is in fact possible? Or is it just you saying "I don't see why it can't be possible"? Because in the latter case, don't you think your argument is completely irrelevant?

And about canon...Go tell Matt Ward about it. He's doing more damage with each Codex he writes than the whole FFG products line. If new material isn't important, I really care to hear you about Librarian Dreadnoughts. But that's another topic.

You don't want to hear what we have to say. We are obviously tired of hearing you going over the same arguments over and over. Can we PLEASE just call it a day and stop here? This will lead nowhere, and I'd rather like to have some guys who have the chance to get an early copy of the book to tell us mor eabout the mechanisms.

So please, just stop. As Siranui has said many times, as the thread here won't give you an answer you'd like to hear, if you want more, you can always contact FFG. Right here.

KKLOLTHXBAI

I didn't accuse you of trolling. That was someone else. Do pay attention, double-oh seven.

I can't tell you what you cannot and can say, but I'm pointing out that you've just been repeating yourself for several pages now, and genuinely appear to love the glass being half empty - possibly with slimy mould at the bottom and a crack in it. We're going around in circles, and every time that other people spend their free time trying to answer your queries in a reasonable and helpful manner, you just come back with the same unchanging statements and questions.

Why are you repeatedly complaining to *us* about contents past and potentially future? If you want to make the game the BK way, then the best approach would be to write to FFG directly and ask them about it and tell them what you think. By repeatedly complaining about the same points, it seems that you're more interested in actually complaining than getting any answer. You don't like it, and I don't agree. You've made your point: Let's move forward instead of going on like a stuck record.

You have been told repeatedly on several threads about the difficulties of publishing and small gaming companies, yet we're still met with the same barrage of 'why?'. It becomes hard to respect your opinion when nothing anyone says sinks in. It's fine not to understand the difficulties of publishing and the gaming industry, and nobody minds explaining the first time. But when the information is provided and it just ricochets off you, then -speaking entirely for myself here- opinion of you will suffer. It stops being a matter of being uninformed and seems to stray into deliberate obstinance.

New material IS the priority *in my opinion*. That's because without new matieral, we wouldn't have anything about Erioch, the Reach, or anything. We'd have a framework system and a bunch of alien stats. Not even a relic, or the Stormwardens. Dull, dull, dull. You know what: I've done that. I wrote a 40kRPG years ago. The FFG line has just formalised what I already had, and I'm far from alone in that. It's the new stuff that's great. It's the new ideas that are great. Instead of a dry book, FFG have provided us with a dynamic ready-to-go campaign setting. You might not agree, but you're not going to change what is by stating your opinion as fact. And so long as you are utilising the campaign setting as written by FFG you're being a bit of a hypocrite by condemning their creation of new material.

FFG have balanced their new material with old material as well, and retained a good balance in my opinion. If you wish to change FFG's mind, perhaps you should contact them?

Storm: I think we may have been channelling each other there!

Yup, but you make me look like an angry mofo here

I'll get away with that, though, happens to me all the time ^^

Let's just agree on this: it would be great to be able to pit our kill-teams against an "officiallly statted" Harlequin troupe.

Com'on guys, that would pwn. And somehow I'd like to see them mix up with or against the LOTD, even though don't exist as such yet according to Canon.

Alex

Storm: But you were quicker on the draw.

Alex: It would pwn, but only if it didn't take place in some formless void, instead of the frankly excellent campaign setting. Every page on the Reach was worth a page of critter stats, to my mind. And I *very* rarely say that about fluff.

[i'd probably be more upset about lack of Eldar if there weren't thirty frikkin' pages of frankly excellent fan-made stats out there, for gratis!]

I picked up my copy from a local UK store in the UK on Tuesday, have only had chance to scim through but all round I am rather pleased with it, much more in it than CA. I am about to run through the web intro scenario's so i concentrated on the nids section in my scimming, from memory there were around 12ish entries, most completely new and a few re-done from other products and generally I was impressed with them.

Is DW the book about the Deathwatch in the JR, or is it a book which features JR as a sample setting? Or put another way are we likely to get new 'core books' for DW in this sector and DW in that sector? I find it unlikely, yes they should concentrate on the sample sector but an acknowledgement to those that wont use it would be nice. Personally I have used it, but i appreciate that a lot of people will have their own ideas. If the future RT enemy book will feature eldar and other stuff that you can translate directly DW that would be fine, but my impression is that they wont be. GS's is DH and DW are different.

Only skimmed book, but am pretty sure was only one set of weapon stats in book so am pretty sure they have gone with the old rules, so yes perhaps version 1.2 is on the way. While I agree their needed to be a fix, not sure that was the best easiest/way. Will future enemy books have 5 pages per entry? The write up, stat block for DH/RT, stat block for DW, weapon stats for DH/RT and orginal DW, stat block for revised DW, adventure seeds, a fluff 'report' or some such, would not be surprised if we had DH 2nd edition soon, will that have re-done stats/weapons as well? Really think the lines need to be combined and integrated, since the rulebook for DH, tjhey have included basic skills/talents for the class because they said it was for future integration, where is the integration?

I don't think we'll be getting 'alternative' DW settings, based on the DH and RT model. And that's fine with me, because the Reach is a very artificial creation, designed to side-step the problems with a Watch game. There are...what... a million worlds in the Imperium, and perhaps 10,000 Watch at most. That's one five-man team per 500 planets. A team operating out in 'that' part of the Imperium is thinly-spread, probably far from superiors, and perhaps permanently part of an Inquisitorial retinue. What FFG did with the Reach was to create a place where there is a reason for many Watch being in the same place at once, an organisational and command structure, a way of getting piles of relics and wargear, and a method of throwing all kinds of things at the team without it seeming too constructed.

They did the same in RT (by opening up a new area of space for some kind of interstellar land-grab) and in DH (by having stuff in the sector that ensured there was a ton of Inquisitors there, and plenty of infighting). They basically found a reason to cram stuff together in a believable way.

As to integration: Who knows. A close comparison is WoD, and WW never released a book on how to cram their lines together in a single game. And despite a theoretically shared system, the realities of putting mages, dogs and leeches together in one game simply did not work. I see that to be the case here too, because the games are of such widely different characters, and because the rules have developed and changed in small but tangible ways. Maybe we'll see a unified system book, but there'd still be problems. I'm personally of the mind that any GM who wants to open the can of worms of mix-and-match 40k RPGs is going to find unique issues, regardless of how much FFG try to smooth the path. I'm certainly not planning on synching systems any time soon!

Anyway...tell us about MoX, darnit!