One of my heroes tried to pull that one on me last night, claiming that though you're not allowed to swap with shadow soul when you're in town, that that's because it's in a totally different location, whereas the stomach is still in the dungeon.

Seems a bit cheesy. So, my question has four parts:

1) Can someone swap positions with Shadow Soul when they're in someone's stomach?

2) If not, what is the reasoning and/or rule interpretation?

3) If so, since both that and the stomach acid damage happen at the beginning of the hero's turn, which happens first?

4) If Shadow Soul is in the stomach, does that mean that the wyrm can't swallow anything else?

Personally I think this is rather cheesy, but am willing to go along with reasoned arguments.

Osaka said:

This one is going to get dicey. There's no official ruling on this to my knowledge. I could really see this going either way though.

Pro-swapping would argue that you could. Even in this case I would have to say that the damage would still be applied and happen before the swap since its an event that, in my mind, would take place before the Hero uses the Shadow Soul skill. If Shadow Soul is in the stomach, I guess you'd have to claim that you can't swallow another Hero. Granted, Shadow Soul can move out of the stomach at the start of the Heroes next turn. If he stays there, he's not going to take any damage so I guess it would be a way to block the ability.

The arguement against this has the same strength. Since the stomach tile isn't part of the dungeon, the same ruling about the town would apply to it since its a separate location. Doesn't matter that the wyrm is in the dungeon, the stomach tile isn't. Since the Swallow attack can also only target Heroes and familiars are typically immune to such attacks, it would imply that Shadow Soul can't be Swallowed or placed in the stomach tile. I mean the way I've always thought of Shadow Soul working is that this familar causes you to move between shadowed areas in the dungeon, and somehow I don't think there will a light source in the wyrm's stomach to make shadows with.

So honestly, I'm not sure how the rules should go on this one. I personally would go with the arguement against being allowed to use it, mainly because familiars are immune to attacks and Swallow is essentially an attack.

Actually, if the hero can use Shadow Soul to get out, it looks like they should be able to do that before taking damage. Note this question from the FAQ:

Q. What is the proper timing of events that occur "at the beginning of a player's turn"?
A. When multiple events may occur "at the beginning of a player's turn," such as a hero affected by multiple different status effects like Burn and Bleed, that player may decide in which order to resolve them. The player must resolve all "start of turn" effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn.

The Shadow Soul and the Swallow damage are both "start of turn" effects, so the hero gets to choose the order in which to resolve them.

Of course, that says nothing about whether the hero should be able to swap with his Shadow Soul in the first place. It looks like a strict reading of existing rules would allow you to do this, but it looks a strict reading also allowed you to swap in and out of town until they published errata specifically saying that you can't, so my guess is that this isn't an intended use of the Shadow Soul.

The intentions of the author are pretty clear to me. Stomach is an off-board space with nothing adjacent to it. The hero inside cannot do anything except 1 desperate attack per turn. The only way to help him is to kill the wyrm. It's the ultimate trap, the doom-tile, the most horrible death. Yet it's fair and usually gives the hero a chance to kill the wyrm from the inside (unless the hero is a very bad surge roller).

No shadow soul swapping.

If you want to play rule lawyers, go ahead. Everyone who paid for his game can play it any way he/she wishes. It's the author's intention that matters, not the wording of shadow soul / stomach tile rules.

Biernath_John said:

Not to be a jerk, but unless you have a direct line to the author's mind you can't know what he intended and we are forced to go with what was written for the rules. This is not to say I don't agree with you since I think it works exactly like you and Antistone say. Most of the time, it is the wording of the rules that matter. Doesn't matter what the author intends if he doesn't write it down the correct way.

Big Remy said:

Indeed, and sometimes, what the author had in mind doesn't really work because of some other rules/items/card they had forgotten about. But concerning shadow soul, I think it doesn't work, as the stomach is offboard.

Biernath_John said:

f you want to play the 'intent' game, I can do that just as well. The Shadow Soul is an Ethereal Double, that allows the character who owns it to be in two places, just not at once. It is perfect for the stomache, the ideal out. You just can't restrict a hero who has two physical locations to choose from (unless you restrict both locations). The intent of the author is pretty clear to me, the hero has two physical locations so he can't be trapped by the stomache - oh wait, its clear to you too... The intentions of the author are frequently not even known by the author himself (ie the interaction was not considered). Nobody has a direct line into what the author might (have) intend(ed), should he (have) consider(ed) it.

Right, with that out of the way, we have nothing left but the rules.

Shadow soul, AoD pg 8

This familiar is granted by the “Shadow Soul” Subterfuge skill card. The Shadow Soul’s speed is 5 and it has the Flying ability. The Shadow Soul cannot end its movement in the same space as another figure, nor can figures end their movement in the same space as the Shadow Soul. At the start of its owner’s turn, the Shadow Soul’s owner may either: A) Swap places with the Shadow Soul, B) Move the Shadow Soul to an empty space adjacent to the owner, or C) Do nothing with the Shadow Soul. The owner then receives his normal turn, including movement, even if he swapped places with the Shadow Soul.

Note it is swap places, not squares, not tiles, not anything else. It is true that the owner can't call the shadow soul beside him (there are no adjacent spaces in the stomache, but he can definitely swap places unless we can find something that says not.

Nothing in the Stomache rules (ToI pg 7, to much to copy here now) says he can't swap places. There are lots of restriction, but the shadow soul swapping is not one of them.

The FAQ precedes ToI so doesn't have anything. Except the part already quoted about start of turn actions being players choice of order.

So, answering the questions...

1. Yes. See AoD pg 8

2. There aren't any. Not in the rules or FAQ at least.

3. Players choice. See FAQ pg 4

4. No, the Monster can not (*). The monster must wait until the first hero is killed (escaping does not seem to change this rule, though perhaps it should) before it can swallow another. If the Shadow-souled hero did not bother to get the Shadowsoul out of the stomache (he can, using option B) and the Shadowsoul-ed hero subsequently dies, another hero could be swallowed as that would still not break the only-one-hero-in-the-stomache rule. See ToI pg 7

A monster may only have one hero placed on its stomach tile at a time. Once a hero has been swallowed, a second hero cannot be swallowed until the previously swallowed hero is killed.

* well, not unti the first hero, now out of the stomache, dies. So its really a Yes, but there are conditions to fulfill first.

All that said, you are still free to house-rule it otherwise if you want. It could even be changed by a future FAQ release.

Part of the problem is FFG's tendency to want to make each expansion stand alone with JitD, so that you don't need AoD or WoD to play it. Frequently interactions such as this aren't either considered or left to a FAQ update.

I don't have the rules on me... What is the wording on the swallow ability? Does it say anywhere that the hero cannot leave the stomach tile until either (s)he or the wyrm is dead, or some other similar wording? If so, that would be a good argument against swapping with SS, as it would go against the rules for swallow.

Personally I think that fluff-wise it makes a certain amount of sense, as described previously by some of you, but in terms of gameplay it is VERY fuzzy. Not least of which is the fact that by the rules alone, you'd be able to swap spaces with SS when in town, rendering glyphs meaningless. Along a similar vein, it's obvious by the confusion on point 4 that the when writing the rules, they hadn't considered the possibility that there might be a way to escape the stomach without one of you being dead, so hadn't written any rules to handle that eventuality.

I tend to agree that they seem to write each expansion as a separate entity, so certain unforseen combinations can cause confusion. While this is a bit of a shortcoming on their part, I can't really fault them, as the game on the whole seems very well balanced to me, and part of me really likes the fact that many of the monsters and dungeons are separate thematically... It's also a good that they do this when it comes to the survivability of the game, as there are those players who get peaved if they discover that there are parts of a game (or expansion) that only work if they buy more bits.

Realistically, we can't expect the designers to consider every possible combination of skill and gameplay we players can dream up. On the other hand, it'd be nice if they took some time to consider the possibilities.

Osaka said:

Rules PDFs are your friend....

There is no restriction preventing the Hero from leaving the stomache. Actually, thats not necessarily true... It does say that a swallowed hero remains in the stomache until either he or the Wyrm dies. That's not a restriction per se, but...

ToI pg 7

?While a hero is placed on the stomach tile, the following conditions affect him:
• At the start of each of that hero’s turns, that player rolls a number of black power dice equal to the number of wounds the hero has remaining (i.e., the number of additional wounds it would take to kill him). Blank die results have no effect. Each die result that is not a blank causes the hero to suffer one wound (ignoring armor).
• The hero cannot use any ability or skill that requires advancing, running, battling, or readying (except for placing a hero order).
• The hero can only make one attack per turn, and can only attack the swallowing monster. Any such attack the hero makes ignores the monster’s armor, however.
• The hero can only use one hand’s worth of weapons. Alternatively, the hero may make an unarmed attack as per page 19 of the Descent core rule book.
• The hero cannot use surges or fatigue.
• A swallowed hero remains in the stomach until either he or the swallowing monster is killed.
If the monster is killed before the swallowed hero dies, the swallowed hero is removed from the stomach tile and placed on any space, of that hero player’s choice, that was occupied by the swallowing monster when it died. If a hero on the stomach tile is killed before the swallowing monster dies, the hero’s figure is placed on the town tile, and all the normal rules for hero deaths apply.

The way I see it, we have a Card (Shadow Soul is a card, although the rules for it are found in the rulebook) and a Special Ability (Swallow) which possibly conflict.

The rules hierarchy (IMO, I can't find it explicit anywhere) goes Basic Rules, then Special abilities (which are extra rules modifying basic rules, like Poison counters replacing lost wound tokens etc - and include Swallow), then Cards (which frequently break the rules, such as Acrobat moving through stuff, Leadership giving a 'third action', Ambush allowing the OL to interrupt a hero turn, etc - and include Shadowsoul).

On this premise I would have Shadowsoul trumping Swallow even if you consider the swallowed hero remaining in the stomache as a Restriction (I'm not sure - its very badly worded for a Restriction).

I treat stomach tile just like the town tile. As an off-board space.

Shadow Soul cannot be used while in town, so it's pretty clear to me that you cannot use him.

As for the author's intentions - in vanilla we had Landrec the Wise who gets 2 surges every roll. They forgot to write that those rolls must be combat rolls, but most of the people understood it was meant to work that way. The intentions of the author were pretty obvious.

Of course, there were people who swore to play it just like it was written - EVERY SINGLE ROLL, for example, solving riddles in quest 3 or getting out of the web, or resisting crushing block damage. Stomach tile case is just like Landrec's one - untill Jason clarifies it, there will be people waving their rulebooks and quoting every rule to prove they are right and shadow soul works.

(Unless shadow soul works in the stomach, and I'm horribly wrong, oh well).

(That reminded me: after Kevin clarified Landrec's ability, there were people who ignored the new ruling, because they want to be faithful to all the game texts!)

I think the sentence "A swallowed hero remains in the stomach until either he or the swallowing monster is killed" makes the author's intention pretty clear...

The "cards > special rules" thing, I never saw that - so it's a matter of interpretation. But generally, something totally breaking a game mechanic like swallowing (by letting the shadow soul occupy the sole swallowable space) must raise suspicion methinks.

I agree with Haslo on the wording. Also:

“hero’s figure is then removed from the dungeon”

“A monster may only have one hero placed on its stomach tile at a time.”

Flimsy but…. if the hero is “removed from the dungeon” it might indicate that this situation is like a hero being in town i.e. not legal.

Regardless, even if the Shadow Soul swap is legal, I don’t think it would stop another hero being Swallowed – the monster may only have one “hero” on its stomach tile at any one time.

Please note, I am playing a hero in our current campaign so I’m all for the swap being legal

Thoughts?

haslo said:

yay, the 'intent' game again!

I think " At the start of its owners turn the Shadow Soul's owner may Swap places with the Shadow soul " makes the author's intention pretty clear...

Oh wait, its a different author!

As far as breaking a mechanic goes... thats what many cards (and special abilities) do. Acrobat breaks the 'may not pass through enemies or obstacles' mechanic. Leadership breaks the '2 half actions per turn each' mechanic. Reach breaks the 'melee only hits adjacent squares' mechanic. There are many examples. Why Shadow Soul should suddenly not be allowed to break a mechanic is beyond me... And it doesn't totally break the mechanic either - once the hero dies the monster can Swallow another hero regardless of the presence of the shadowsoul still in its stomache. (By the way, there are no 'spaces' in the stomache). Thats much less 'broken' than what Acrobat does!

As for the town argument, it is the nearest thing there is so far to a hint as to how they might FAQrule it. However there might be thematic reasons for that ruling which do not apply to the stomache (the ruling is certainly not based on text, so its either based on thematics or preventing brokenness - possibly because only Heroes can activate glyphs so the shadow souls cannot go to town or return from town normally). For example, 'town' may be hundreds of miles away - thematically too far for the shadow soul to maintain its link. However, despite not being on the board, the stomache is still actually inside the dungeon - thematically the same distance away that shadowsoul can normally operate at. The key point is that we don't know what they will rule, if they rule at all, so we can only go by the rules. All the 'intent' games in the world will just go in circles as each side alternately pulls out another, better, reason why their way is best. As far as the rules go, there is (probably) direct conflict, but the standard is that cards trump. So by the rules, shadow soul should be able to get out of the stomache.

But houserule it otherwise if you want...

Well, considering that another hero can still be swallowed despite the Shadow Soul being in the stomach, the mechanic isn't totally broken anyway. And yes, you're right, cards usually trump rules. Considering the Shadow Soul then has to remain in the stomach and thus doesn't benefit the hero anymore, it's a fair tradeoff.

Hmm. The rules definitely say that only 1 hero may be swallowed at a time, and the shadow soul is not a hero. I would have to agree that both the shadow soul and a hero can be in the stomach at any one time. So, I would say that you can use the Shadow Soul once to escape the Wyrm, but I would suggest getting as far away from the Wyrm as possible during your turn of freedom, lest you be swallowed a second time and have no escape.

haslo said:

Except that the owner can on his next turn use option B of Shadowsoul to move it next to himself; so the Overlord doesn't even get that.