Can you play them in Deathwatch? Do the books cover this at all? Or is it just generally understood that the ruleset sticks to the Games Workshop rule that all Space Marines are male?

It does, but nothing prevents you from adjusting the background as you see fit for your group.

And rules for how to use PCs from DH and RT are in the DW rulebook. But yes, the book repeatedly states that only males can become Space Marines.

Why would you play Deathwatch as anything but a Space Marine? Wouldn't they be horribly outclassed? Not being flippant here, but just taking a glance here at the sample characters in Final Sanction, their STR bonus is 10 and their TOU bonus is 8 (!!!)

Fortinbras said:

If you make an Ascended Adepta Sororitas with the additions from Blood of Martyrs, the faith talents alone make them a decent and unique force. There is a simular thread to this in another section, but it turned out to be just a rant on why you can't have female space marines or I would direct you there.

Fortinbras said:

Well lets see....

Rank 9 Guardsman (Vindicare Assassin) sounds pretty effective.

Rank 9 Tech-Priest, especially is you dont have a Tech Marine (or even if you do) is pretty special.

Rank 9 Psyker.....speaks for itself.

Rank 9 Sister of Battle, pretty much a PALADIN OF DEATH AND JUSTICE with all the faith and gear.

Rank 9 Cleric or Rank 9 Gaurdsman of the Officer path will turn every force of PDF or Guard on your side into a massive crowd of angry soccer hooligans with hatred EVERYTHING!

Rank 9 Adept will know just about everything and have psychic powers to boot!

And if you are mocking a rank 9 guardsman in power armour, remember they will likely have S50 and T50 themselves, so that would be a SB of 7 in power armour and 12 or so points of soak in power armour. Sure, they wont win a slap match with a space marine, but they are not to be laughed at. Especially is assisted with bionics, cybernetics and a powerfist.

So its really what role you expect non astartes to play. If you expect the entire party, including non astartes to wrestle hive tyrants, yeah, they are toast, but they have their uses.

Peacekeeper_b said:

The problem isn't so much Hive Tyrants, it's more hordes.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I don't know a Sister with Soulstorm or a Psyker with His will be done could do some serious damage to a horde.

ak-73 said:

No, the problem is actually with Deathwatch's game mechanics. Again though, this is a combat focused event. Its a Roel Playing Game which can have a heavy combat slant to it. But experienced DH characters should know the good value of hiding LOL. So maybe the players should invest some of that starting 14,000 XPs to Concealment and spray themselves in horde urine to avoid detection LOL.

And I would give the astartes the ability to use the bodyguard talent with the non astartes.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Lol, tbh my DH or RT chars would rather use Cameleoline than urine...
I don't think the problem is with the mechanics. If a group of 30 hormagaunts charges your PC, a rank 9 DH char does have a problem, a DW char can handle this. Horde rule or no.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Cameleoline does not hide scent.

I think I'd just make it an Adeptas Sororitas character without the power armor AGI penalty and some of the bonuses that Space Marines get if it really came down to it.

I'd say just make sure that everyone knows that the Sororitas needs a degree of protection. After all, that character would be a somewhat high ranking member of one of the Ordos, so essentially a VIP that the team has t keep an eye on. If they let her go off and get killed, they'd most likely have hell to pay.

Why would the Ordo Xenos care about a member of the Ordo Hereticus, to a greater degree than the accomplishment of the mission? That unfairly burdens the player as being a boat anchor and not pulling their own weight in the group, while making the group resent the character and possibly IC'ly sabotaging her in the process.

It's better to just give her equal gear without penalty, plus some of the other bonuses.

Fortinbras said:

They way I am doing it in my campaign is by the Idea of a cabal, pg 315 DH core book for refferance. My campaign is in the calaxis sector and the characters are fighting various forces all associated with the Tyrant Star(My version of the Tyrant star is differant then one presented in the Harlok series). The one of the space marines is a Grey Knight representing Ordo Malleus, and the Sister will represent Ordo Hereticus. As far as the Sister needing protection, I am not sure if you have read blood of martyrs but those faith talents pack a punch. In addition I have created bonuses for the Orders of the Sisterhood, simular to the bonuses given for specific chapters of the marines. I have listed those in the DH forums.

Why would they NOT care about each other? Sure, the threat they're geared toward facing isn't the same, but if one of them fails, everyone dies.

At least in my interpretation of 40k, the Sisters of Battle are with the Ordo Hereticus, in the sense that an entire Order of sisters acts as the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus. I view it as entirely possible that an individual Battle Sister may find herself needed by a different Ordo, and I seriously doubt they would refuse to assist as needed (especially if it is a matter of "well do you want to play in this game or not?").

Also, not sure if the OP has access to blood of martyrs, but Battle Sisters now begin play with power armour and bolters. Combine this with the cloak in the ascension pdf for Battle sisters, and they have unnat toughness, likely having a total ap+tb of 15+ if they play cards right, which isn't too insanely far off, combined with faith talents and it works pretty nice.

Finally, RPGs are not always a matter of damage output, and an ascended battle sister can add quite a bit in terms of skills a regular DW party may not have. This also applies to anything beyond a battle sister, as the above examples of psyker, vindicare, inquisitor, etc.

Also, its not like the party always has to be fighting hordes of tyranids or other massed hordes of enemies. There are plenty of things beyond fighting in crazed warzones that a kill team might be involved in, and these fall upon the GM to properly develop a game that provides a challenge to all players. I always have seen the "explore this crazy, trap filled, unknown horror filled, ancient xenos structure with an artifact of damnable power at its core" in a tomb of horrors-esque style to be pretty cool idea for a DW game.

Genestealers are xenos, but the cult that forms around them are heretics.

Tau are xenos, but the humans that take up arms for them are heretics.

Kroot are xenos, but the humans that hire them are heretics (and/or Rogue Traders).

Orks are xenos, but... ah, **** it... kill the xenos already.

Point being, there's a lot of overlap between the Ordo of the Inquisition. It migh even possible for a Battle Sister to become an Inquisitor (I haven't looked too closely) and, if so, she could always opt for Ordo Xenos.

As others said, if you want to remain thematic and canonical, no. No marines can be female. The geneseed needs male stuff to work.

By rank 12 the Vindicare Asssassin can have all the 'unnaturals' that a Space Marine does - and Rank 11 has the far more important one, Unnatural Toughness. By the topped out rank, they have more. And from the get go their weapon is freaking amazing.

A Tech Priest can do it even earlier. Possibly play one and say you're an attached Skiitari?

The rest? Well, to keep up in combat you're screwed. As others said, social and other skills you'll blow them away. But whatever.

That said, the Horus Heresy give us more than a few examples of normal humans having access to some (I'd guess VERY expensive) upgrades that put them on par with Astartes, presumably something possible but just not worth it compared to Mass Producing Astartes. Cases in point? Luther (Who was good enough to almost beat a Primarch, and did supposedly get some upgrades, but was never a true Astartes), at least one from the Word Bearers, I think one or two of the major Thousand Sons were in a similar state. And other members of many companies were treated as equals, or commanders. Generally the lieutenants and followers of a Primarch who were too old to survive the change. (Space Wolves were an exception, a few thousand said we're not afraid, we want to be Astartes! A hundred or so survived). Anyway, the point here being that it is possible through other means to become an 'equivalent' to an Astartes - and even exceed them physically (Look at some Assassins, Eversor, in the HH books one, JUST one took out a dozen at once before dying - though Assassins probably get even more extensive mods than Astartes so may not be the best example). Just mega expensive It's one thing I'd like to be seen added to Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, for instance.

Admittedly, you'd lack a few things - many of those organs for instance. And the Black Carpace. But the big 'game mechanic' stuff that matters most, namely the Unnatural Toughness trait, could be quite easily justified. I'd suggest an Inquisitor, as many others might. With some houseruled options to get Unnatural Toughness or better starting equipment to help make up for that lovely little bit (Equivalent of almost an extra suit of armor!). Things like Good quality Force Field and Ignatius Class Power Armor as a start (That would probably make them quite durable)

Just be aware that hideous, hideous power levels can be achieved via the inclusion of a couple of Dark Heresy Ascension "buff-focused" characters in a Deathwatch squad, such as a faith power orientated Soritas, or a Temporal Manipulation focused Primarius Pskyer/Inquisitor.

Faith powers that can give the party extra levels of unnatural toughness/strength, while Warp Time, the level three Temporal Manipulation power can effectively give the whole party an extra full action each round, if the psyker rolls high enough...

Nnnooooooooooooooooo............. The HUMANITY!!!

Not again! Gravity wins!

My male friend always play female characters in RPGs. Hell, I often play female characters too. I don't see it that strange, or impossible, for a female to play male characters. Should actually be easier right?

"Battle Sisters now begin play with power armour and bolters. Combine this with the cloak in the ascension pdf for Battle sisters, and they have unnat toughness, likely having a total ap+tb of 15+ if they play cards right, which isn't too insanely far off, combined with faith talents and it works pretty nice."

For that matter, the pre-gen Palatine starts with a best quality suit of armour (weighs nothing and has an extra point of armour), and a best quality bolter (never jams) . She won't win an arm-wrestling match, but she can quite easily end up in the same league in a firefight.

More importantly is her Influence stat, which the marines don't have. She gets a grab-bag load of Good Reputation and Peer talents, meaning she can requisition gear and personnel openly and legally in a way that the battle-brothers can't. A suitably high level Palatine verges on living saint status, and where the battle brothers can add some spine to a battlefront in the location they currently happen to be standing in, she'll be able to inspire entire war-zones.

She can also quite easily get some very shiny wargear without waiting for the battle-brother's reknown to catch up.

For example; with Good Reputation (Ecclesiarch), swapping out her chainsword for an eviscerator isn't an unduly difficult task, and that puts her pretty much in the same league for melee damage (albeit less able to parry). She can get a power weapon straight off. Hell, with a lucky roll, she can aquire best quality heavy power armour, rosarius, you name it. Boltgun not carrying astartes ammo? Fair enough, they can't get psycannon rounds - makes witch bolts look like a **** popgun.

Vindicere is the other good one, because (as noted) the key weakness of non-marine characters is normally hordes. Hordes, however, can't attack you if they can't see you, and a Vindicere can therefore often avoid being attacked at all, allowing her to concentrate on using that god-killing sniper rifle on important targets. Equally, the normal restriction that you can't dodge fire from a horde is ignored thanks to the Temple Assassin trait, which (in brief) allows you to dodge pretty much anything, multiple times a turn.

"My male friend always play female characters in RPGs. Hell, I often play female characters too. I don't see it that strange, or impossible, for a female to play male characters. Should actually be easier right?"

I don't see the problem, no.

Magnus Grendel said:

There are a lot of ways in which Sisters don't really compete. The first is damage. Thier damage output unless you give them Astartes level weaponry is woefully inadequate unless they spend fate points on powering thier faith every combat. Even with Tests of Faith to bypass that once a session, its not necessarily even footing. They can supplement the Battle brotehrs with their power but don't expect them to compete in combat (at least not as written).

andrewm9 said:

Sisters don't compete on a one-on-one basis with Astartes. They never will. They are not supposed to. The prowess of the Sororitas is that they can field numbers in one location that Astartes can't, and they can bring a level of durability and firepower that is on par with the Astartes.

In DW terms a SoB is a viable character that can stand with a kill-team and not get pulped in a round of combat. What a SoB brings into a DW game is skills and resources that the DW will never be able to access on their own. Temple Assassins are the only things that can out brute Astartes.

What's worse for a planetary governor?

1. Getting killed by a space marine.

or

2. Getting labeled Heretic by a SoB or Inq and then killed by a SM so his family/dynasty is probably labeled Heretic, hunted and purged.

I would say #2.

As soon as you add in non-Astartes to the mix the nature of the game changes, and not in a bad way.