Yeah, definitely agree with everybody on the mill aspect. You shouldn't be able to ever build a deck that can consistently discard your opponent's deck in the first few turns. Effects obtained off the discard would be the way to go (such as Kraken Tattoo or Fishmonger's Square ) .

About Euron, I agree with you Gualdo that the raider version is better in certain circumstances. Hell, he might even be better overall than the KotS version. I guess it's just a personal preference, I have a soft spot for that one .

The Raider version of Euron lets you not have to worry about annoying Martell events. so for me its a better version

I think FFG has done a pretty good job with milling so far - it triggers effects (mainly adding power). I agree that is the way to go - anything interactive works for me.

In Warhammer it is a different story, you can draw so much the negative is you might deck yourself and you lose as soon as you do (well, as soon as you try to draw and can't). It adds a different risk/reward wrinkle that can't be recreated in aGoT IMHO.

I'm not sure I agree 100%. I think milling someone's deck is a dstinct strategy and certainly no more NPE than a rush deck that can consistently work in a few turns, or a control deck that just locks me down where I'm not actually playing the game (I'm looking at you Lannister Hyperkneel).

I think that we do need more mill cards, some powerful ones, but not necessarily ones that eat up huge chunks of my opponents deck, but ones which are powerful in how they interact with the board beyond that bite into their deck. Something better than Urchin and Thug to claim power would be nice. Something like Whirlpool would be awesome. Whether it is mill as a result of achieving something in the game, or mill to achieve something in the game, ideally some of each should be added.

But because mill != win I just have an issue seeing mill itself being an NPE as long as it isn't wiping my deck out in three or fewer plots. I know I've lost to rush and Aggro in 3-4 turns, and been locked out by control decks around the same plot point. That gives me 3 good solid turns to enact my own strategy while removing whatever mill engine/pieces my opponent is using. If I can't do that then perhaps I deserve to have no cards left in my deck. I still have my hand and my board position. As was said earlier, losing your deck does not mean you've lost the game. I want to be able to build a mill deck that can consistently deck my opponent around turn 6-7, or get me enough power to win the game through mill effects or challenges boosted by mill effects.

But outside of classic there is just no place for mill being so fast and so aggressive that it can deck someone in 2 turns. I don't care how good one players luck is and how bad their opponents is. When I want a 10-15 minute game I'll play W:I. Of course I feel the same way about losing to rush in two turns, so I'm biased.

I guess I didn't have such a problem with mill back in 5KE because Valar wasn't floating around. At least then I felt like if I did get decked, I could use my remaining characters to focus defending military, and take what ever was left. Not the best situation, but certainly a lot better than getting decked and facing Valar.

Gualdo said:

Would Brotherhood Euron stop Red Vengeance? RV takes affect after the winner of the challenge is determined. Wouldn't that mean that Euron is no longer attacking and events can be played? Or is the timing different?

JeffK said:

While Eddard Stark is defending, lower the attacking player's claim to 0.

While Arianne Martell is attacking, raise the Claim value on your revealed plot card by 1.

If someone is participating, then it must be attacking or defending, right?

JeffK said:

Yes, he would. RV is a cancel response and thus played as a cancel in step 2 right after the framework action "determine the winner of challenge", and before the framework action "challenge result is implemented". Euron remains a participating/attacking character until the framework action window closes several steps later (-> see timing structure in the FAQ). (I hope I got this right).

Saturnine said:

Actually you play it just after the initiation of "2. Challenge result is implemented" framework event, since you cancel the claim. You don't cancel or change the determination of challenge winner.

Rogue30 said:

D'uh, yes, thank you. I had an amalgamation of RV and Burning on the Sand in my head.

Rogue30 said:

OK, that makes sense. I checked the flowchart and it remained unclear to me when, exactly, a character is no longer considered attacking/defending, but the Eddard & Arianne examples helped me wrap my head around it. Thanks.

I think I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree. With everyone - including myself. I was thinking about it on the way to work this morning, and I think milling doesn't need more effects to trigger off of it. That's like just adding to how difficult it is to pull off a milling deck - just more cards for the combos. While combos aren't necessarily a bad thing, I think most top-tier tournament-winning decks have not been combo-based, and rely more on a solid, unified strategy. These strategies tend to not require a lot of different cards to make them work, either. This is why I think milling will just never work - it can't be fast enough to be effective, because that's an NPE, and obviously if it's too slow, it just loses.

Here's what I'd like to say:

Take to the Seas - Agenda

House Greyjoy only.

Iron Islands locations may participate in any challenge as defenders. Warship locations may participate in military and power challenges as attackers. Unique locations are considered to have renown.

Just a fun idea.

Oops, meant *see*, not *say*. Confusing.

WolfgangSenff said:

Bah. Why can't we edit these? The agenda needs to have, "With strength equal to their cost + 1" on it.

I think that the current mill needs few cards that mill and get something out of it or something that gets anything useful from milling. Since currently every game I have seen with mill/raiders it goes like this -> "oh you got plenty of mill card but only 1 that gets somethign out of it, I'll just get rid of it" or "oh you got plenty of cards that get something out of milling but 1 mill card I'll get rid of it" when this happens the deck becomes really useless and boring to play, since its easy for your opponent to control your play. I have to say that there is great potential in raiders thanks to ambitious oarsman and Euron.

A big problem that I see with current Gj is that it isn't focused enough for any kind of one strategy. If you want working Gj build you need few plans that are simultaniously running in the deck. Other problem that I see is that the Gj has no good way to deal with rush/good characters since all the removal Gj has is either not directable or they are conditions which are easily hadled by few maesters.

But I hope Gj will soon get few more good cards, the potentialy for great deck is there.

JeffK said:

So based on how Brienne of Tarth works... a character is considered participating until the challenge framework is complete. This means:

you can't play events until after keywords, claim, and the response window to the challenge is over. So no you cannot play Red Vengence or Burning on the Sand.

Ire said:

These are pretty much my thoughts exactly. I've been trying to figure out a good way to kind of enforce a single unifying theme onto GJ and it actually works out okay - things like War crests + Die by the Sword + Price of War. I think I really like that deck style. If you throw in 3x Support of Harlaw + Raider Euron, you have some speed potential as well. It's pretty well focused, and I think it could be a real winner, just like what my mom used to call me as a child.

Penfold said:

I see what you are saying, but the NPE nature of milling is that there isn't really a good natural counter to it (other than putting more cards in your deck of course!). I can block a rush deck, put out more cards than Lanni can kneel, etc. And at least I am drawing cards in those instances to try to find counters - when you are decked, you are decked (especially w/ Valar around as someone had mentioned). Maybe I am splitting hairs here, and maybe it is how cards are printed - I just have been truly decked once in my life in a dedicated deck, and it made me stop playing Classic *shrug*

You are right that if there was a deck that consistently knelt everything I had out every turn then I probably wouldn't be happy either! Again, at least I would be drawing to try and find an answer!

The putting more cards in your deck starts a bad rock/paper/scissors effect of: mill deck being > 60-card deck (assume a strong mill deck), 80 card deck > mill deck, 60 card deck > 80 card deck (due to being tighter).

rings said:

Ser Barristan Selmy (Core Set). Builder of the Watch (Neutral). Stormcrows (Targ). Valyrian Spirit (Targ).

But I see what you're saying. Most of them are not cards you would play in many of your decks. And general tool-boxing is only of limited use in stopping a strong mill that consists of many cards.

I really think that one of the main problems in GJ right now is that if you take a look at all the sucessful builds out there, from other houses, they all have decent drawing cards.

GJ is really missing on this with only LIV as the only decent draw... if you have high Initiative on your plot deck you can use Bay of Ice, but apart from these there aren't too many options that will work in GJ...

Are there any ideas for more (consistent) draw in GJ?

Lord of Blades said:

I agree and I feel like there is a similar problem with Targ. I really like the new Jhogo, but before that... Maegi Crone (too expensive/low STR) Xaro's Home (too situational, how many attachments do you really put in a deck, even a Targ one) Tears of Lys, and Vaes Dothrak (only good in a Dothraki deck). Of course, Targ can use King's Landing effectively and GJ can't...
Right now the two top houses are probably Martell and Lannister, right? Both have draw mechanics that slot nicely into most builds, Fishmonger's Square is really the only other GJ draw and it isn't reliable outside of melee-mill; a location that lets you draw after winning an unopposed challenge would be a nice addition.

Lord of Blades said:

I would kill for LIV for Stark.

Rings I sort of see Mill as more of a countdown timer.

Say one could mill the deck by plot 5 or 6. This means that: you have to either rush before that happens, or gain board control and keep it past your deck being mutilated. The reason Mill was so bad in Magic was that you could do it before one has a chance to play.

Is Milling that different than rush? Both generally play themselves and its up to the opponent to disrupt their strategy.

1. As long as milling is based around challenges for the most part, or possibly something the opponent can cancel by an action (like paying a gold, kneeling a character, letting the opponent draw a card, etc) then the opponent still can stop the milling.

2. As long as milling is a secondary effect to trigger a primary strategy it's less annoying. But at the same time I feel that unless nate makes mill strong in and of itself to effect the game directly, I sort of see it as a negative trait. Think about it... so far its more like giving you abilities that fire off at random. Its worth it only if you actually have a chance to deny the opponent cards. There are two cases where I've seen a mill deck actually work: One was against a 45 card deck, and the other a martel defenders of the north deck.

3. Remember Martell back in Winter/ITE period... everyone hated playing the same martell deck since there was only one strategy. Greyjoy needs other strong strategies other than winter and the new milling kind. I think its time they got some location destruction... as in something like high tide or tidal wave... point and click. They should also have some stuff that reacts to saving (even opponent's saves). I also miss the warships turning into characters.

Hm. Jojen Reed + Motley Crewman is an interesting combo for milling. Pretty fragile though.

Edit: Weeping Water makes this interesting in a Bolton deck. Combine that with Reed's Crannogmen and Desperate Tactics and it gets pretty cool.

WolfgangSenff said:

Why Crewman makes it interesting?