I was thinking if perhaps a talent for Rank should exist in the game (for Guardsmen, Arbitrator and so forth). This rank talent would add a offset bonus to Command and Command like tests performed by the individual when dealing with those they outrank. However, the rank bonus itself is never counted when totalling up degrees of success, but does extend the chances of a standard success.

For example, a Sergeant with Command, a Fel 35 commanding his squad. By right of his rank he gains a +10 bonus over his troopers. However the +10 is only counted if he rolls a 36-45 on his Command Test. If he scores a 23 he still only gains one degree of success, but on a roll of 26-45 he gains a standard success.

In my military experience I have seen situations where Soldiers do as they are told by virtue of the rank of who gave the order, but generally I never see them really motivated or inspired unless that leader is actually good at his or her job (high Fel, good Command skill).

For me it would be a modified version of the Peer talent, but more specific and possibly larger bonuses available. But it doesnt always count, as the Sergeant wouldnt get the bonus when bossing a Colonel around, an the Colonel's modifier would be lower when used against a Major then when used against a Trooper.

This is just one of the ideas that have come up as I have been writing some new background packages and alternate ranks for Guardsmen.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I wouldn't (and don't) treat the ranks as a literal interpretation; after all the Commander rank says that they have "[at their disposal] the greatest armies in the known galaxy", and they sure as hell don't actually have access to that automatically. I use them as abstractions or just general titles; their power comes from the Inquisition, not from whatever power structure they were apart of before. The Inquisition removes them from that, and I can't honestly see that they would just keep getting promotions in a secondary power structure that they don't regularly interact with or take part of.

However, if your dealing with a situation where the PC's have far more authority or a better rank, why not just do what you said - they.. Do what they are told to. Its not like if you walked up and waved a Rosette in their face they would just ignore you if you rolled poorly. Use the FEL/Command rolls to see how much gusto they jump to the orders with, or how good/bad they do. It a hell of a lot simpler than doing the round about "track the NPCs rank versus PCs rank, give PC a temporary +skill that doesn't actually count towards their DOS.etc.etc.etc.

Generally going up in rank is reflected already in open means like Command +'s, Talented: Command, Peer talents and what not. By high rank you could have, what, +50 to Command (Command/+10/+20/Talented for another +10, Peer for another +10, Good Reputation for another +10 = +50). Than if your using the IHB expanded, anyone that counts Devoted or Fanatical (and I would say if they are working closely with their "regular" squad and they have proven to be an apt leader they would count as Devoted), gains an additional +5 per every DoS. 2 DoS puts you up to the maximum of +60 to Command. Huzzah. Without anything additional you can hit the maximum +Command roll.

:3

Rakiel said:

Yes, but in order to have Peer you have to have FEL 30 and to have Good Reputation you have to have FEL 50. Even if you are a lucky guardsman who happens to have FEL 45 at start (as a hive Worlder or Noble Born) you still have to spend 500XP to get that +5 FEL alone.

Nevermind the fact that Guardsmen never get PEER or GOOD REPUTATION. And I also do not consider Experience Rank as Military Rank. In fact, I believe that your experience rank has no reflection at all on your military rank.

True, I never thought about the IHB tables for devoted and what not. But truth of the matter is, not every guardsman is devoted. In fact, what i am trying ot reflect is more of a "Im doing what IM told becasue a Colonel told me" not "Im doing what IM told becasue that guy has FEL 50, Command +20 and Talented Command".

However, I do appreciate the suggestions, and will take them in mind as I refine this idea. What I am now leaning toward is two RANK talents.

Rank (Lesser): Character is considered to have FEL 30 and PEER with troops he outranks and is in direct command of.

Rank (Greater): Character is considered to have FEL 50 and Good Reputation with troops he outranks and is in direct command of.

Afterall, sometimes that Colonel has earned his rank through skill, experience and time in service. And at other times, that Colonel has his rank becasue his uncle gave it to him. Either way, you tend to listen to him if he is your boss. One out of more for his skill and ability (Command, Talents) the other, because of his rank.

*Shrug*

I maintain my initial point though.

If you want to portray them doing something because a higher rank told them to do it, but not necessarily put their spirits into it ....Why not just have them do stuff when they are told to do because a higher rank told them, and have a command/whatever roll be made to modify how much spirit they put into it?

I concede on them not having peer/good reputation, but FEL30 isn't too bad, and its something that can always be opened up by GM fiat or by plot. If we are speaking of opening entirely new mechanics, expanding military connections of a military based character shouldn't be an issue. If we are treating the characters experience rank as entirely separated from their military rank, is this intended for NPC use, or just assigned/background military rank or such like that? I still just honestly don't see the point of it currently - controlling NPC reactions is entirely up to the GM in the first place.

Rakiel said:

Then why even have command and charm and intimidation as skills at all? Of the Fellowship stat at all? If its all up to the GM these are just numbers on a paper set to deceive the player. "I have high Fellowship, yeah but the GM doesnt want that to work so ha ha on wasting your XPs."

The reasoning for me wanting to reflect this, is primarily to add extra reason why a character would go the officer guardsmen leadership route. As it stands, a guardsman benefits far more from going down the route of the death machine (assault, shocktroop, stormtroop) or scout (scout, sniper, sharpshooter) then going down the route the plays against their strengths. By going officer you are going in the direction of the three hardest stats to increase for the career (INT, FEL, WP).

Basically, all it is doing is adding the Peer and Good Reputation to the officers of the Imperial Guard path. And create a trait or talent that allows them to ignore the FEL requirement. Sort of how it is done with the Tech Priests using INT instead of FEL. However, I do not think "rank" or military prowess at leadership should come from having a high WS or STR or something like that. It works for Orks, not guardsmen. So instead of having it based on an expensive stat, I make it based on a set of talents.

In essence I am now at the stage of just putting down the XP and other requirements for two specific ELITE Advances and a special trait as a way around the excessive prerequisites (lets face it, if you have FEL 50 cahnces are you really dont need the Good Reputation bonus, especially stacked with Peer).

Also, command is used with the Rogue Trader ship rules (and probably the Rogue Trader land war rules coming up in Battlefleet Koronus) so it has more impact then just "Hey troop, tie your boots".

I like the idea, I'm just not sure about the way you are implementing it. Here is my take on the idea.

Field Command (Strike Team)
You have been or may be granted temporary command over a small unit of troops.
Requirements: Rank 2
Until this unit is removed from your command you are granted the following bonuses that apply only to the troops given to your authority: You are considered to be trained in the Command skill and for all tests relating to your strike team your FEL is considered to be at a +10.
Being a temporary command, the +10 to your FEL will last a number of days equal to double your new FEL bonus. If the specified number of days passes without interaction from the chain of command reinforcing your authority you must make a Challenging (+0) command test, with the +10 FEL bonus, to reassert your authority. If this test is passed, the +10 bonus is retained until such time as you are relieved of duty. If you fail this command test you loose the +10 bonus but are still considered trained in Command for all tests relating to your strike team. The GM should feel free to grant or impose bonuses and penalties to this roll based on the performance of the strike team and its temporary commander.

Field Command (Assault Force)
You have been or may be granted temporary command over a large unit of troops.
Requirements: Rank 4, FEL 30, Field Command (Strike Team)
Until this unit is removed from your command you are granted the following bonuses that apply only to the troops given to your authority: You are considered to be trained in the Command skill and gain the Talented (Command) trait. For all tests relating to your assault force your FEL is considered to be at a +20.
Being a temporary command, the +20 to your FEL will last a number of days equal to double your new FEL bonus. If the specified number of days passes without interaction from the chain of command reinforcing your authority you must make a Challenging (+0) command test, with the +20 FEL bonus, to reassert your authority. If this test is passed, the +20 bonus is retained until such time as you are relieved of duty. If you fail this command test you loose the +20 bonus to FEL but you retain all other bonuses. The GM should feel free to grant or impose bonuses and penalties to this roll based on the performance of the assault force and its temporary commander. The bonuses granted do not stack with those from Field Command (Strike Team).

I would probably charge 200 XP for FC (Strike Team), and 500 for FC (Assault Force).

Rakiel said:

I agree with the sentiment, though not the execution.

Technically, all the soldiers placed directly under someone's command should, under normal circumstances, obey reasonable orders - requiring no Command Test (and not subject to the normal restrictions for how many people you can affect at once with an Interaction skill), much as reading, writing or speaking a language you're fluent in require no test under normal circumstances - afterall, if they're your immediate subordinates, it is in their job description to listen and obey. It's when any part of that circumstance becomes more difficult that a test is required - the people you're commanding aren't directly under your command (though you do still have authority over them by merit of rank, status, etc), the orders being given aren't reasonable, the troops are reluctant, etc - that a Command Test is required, modified by the disposition of the troops (there's a table in the GM's chapter of the DH and RT rulebooks, and an expanded one in Into the Storm, that covers this) and how reasonable or absurd the orders being given are.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I was about to write a reply much like this. When a superior officer gives and order, in most cases no test is required at all.

However if you are the last 10 men of a platoon of IG, and the (officer) orders you to hold the line against the teeming mass of Tyranids, then it's all about the officer's command ability, his ability to inspire loyalty and obedience. In such a situation it doesen't matter if it's your Sergeant, a Lieutenant or a General that gives the order - the thing that matters is his Command ability.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I think you are wrong. The actual rank of somebody is already essential part of the use of the Command skill. As far as I remember, it is stated that command can only be used on individiuals (or small groups, due to FeB) on person who would have to obey you.

This is strengthend by the notion of the "Air of Authority" Talent where it is stated that only with this talent you will be able to use the Command skill on npc whom are not under you sway regulary.

So, while rank is not giving a bonus (one can be superior in rank but still no good at being followed when push comes to shove); some kind of "out-ranking" is mandatory for using the skill at all. At least, by RAW.

Dont let be said I am unreasonable (or even wrong for that matter).

It seems what I am looking for possibly does exist, but its just not on the chart as is.

So I would propose adding Peer (Imperial Guard) at Sergeant Rank (4 I believe) and Good Reputation at Captain (Rank 7).

I still think that FEL 50 is quite a steep requirement for Good Reputation since those types of characters most likely to have FEL 50 probably already have the interaction skills at the +10 or so level. To take Good Reputation means you must also have Peer already meaning you already have at least a 60 or so in the skill in question. So most likely at the end of the day you have it at 80 once you add in all the factors (Fel 50, +10 for Peer, +10 for Good Reputation, and probably skill at +10).