Our gaming group finally played our first game of Deathwatch this past Friday night. Each of us had read through Final Sanction twice, to get a good grip on the rules, and two of us had read through the core rulebook twice. We each created our own Marine to use in Final Sanction. However, we intentionally didn't integrate rules beyond what are listed in Final Sanction into the main game. Overall, the group had a blast and we love the combat-oriented system. We've all been 40k players for about 8 years now. None of us have been into "roleplaying" (as we've tried D&D and Wheel of Time in the past and simply can't get into the character of it), but we really like rolling dice in combat and are all familiar with the 40k universe. A conversation with an Imperial Officer is a lot more interesting (and less silly feeling) than searching an entire town and cavorting in the local tavern. Personal preference I suppose.

With that said, I am one of the Marines on that team. Initially, I had rolled a Devastator before the mission. Our killteam consisted of a Black Templar Apothecary, Blood Angel Techmarine, Dark Angel Librarian, and my Space Wolf Devastator. I realize I just indicated we didn't add rules beyond Final Sanction, but I'm actually referring to hit location, explosive damage doing an extra hit against hordes, requisition, etc. We all began with our "starting kit." The Techmarine is allowed to use his Servo-armand the Librarian is allowed to use his starting powers (namely Smite, Avenger, and Inspire).

+Spoilers+

We ended the night after the Genestealer ambush in the Governor's mansion.

+End spoiler+

Over the night, it had quickly become apparent to me that a Devastator was not the the class for me. Here are my thoughts:

1) Every Marine has the ability to aim, fire full auto, and requisition almost any weapon in the armory. This means every class can at least be decent at ranged. My teammates were firing their bolters and getting 3-4 hits just as often as I was with my own Heavy Bolter. Down the line, they could all take HBs as well. The Devastator is only unique in that he can take exotic weapons (that require a lot of reknown and most likely won't be acquired for many weeks down the line, at least) and gets cheaper BS. Unless I'm missing something here, I can see little advantage to his class. He is extremely one-dimensional.

2) The Devastator's talents appear to me to be rather lackluster. As you're all aware, they're a mix of shooting and defense. Either I'm laying waste to my foes, or waiting for my teammates to come save me. Target selection isn't gained until Level 3.

3) I'm not sure I want a character that literally shoots one type of weapon over and over for the rest of eternity. When compared to the Techmarine and Librarian, they get far cooler abilities and seem to be able to function in a mix of ranged and melee combat. See point #1.

With that said, our team discussed it and our GM is fine with anyone changing their character or re-rolling their stats for their current character. This is meant to be fair to everyone so that it doesn't appear I'm switching simply "to be better." The group was fine with it as well and the Librarian already opted to re-roll (thus helping his character tremendously). He went from 36 Str and 19 wounds to 44 Str and 23 wounds with the rest of his stats ending up fairly average.

My stats were actually right at about average and my character was slaughtering the Hordes initially. Once we got into melee combat against individual enemies though, I realized how frustrating it was going to become to try and coordinate firing into enemies that my teammates are fighting as well as coordinating their disengagements so I could get a good shot. Rolling one attack per round in melee was kind of sad too.

I've opted to switch to an Assault Marine. This thread is meant to ask advice on that particular class as well. In future missions, I'll requisition a Bolter so that I can get some good shooting in as well. When creating characters, we follow the rulebook as written with one exception. We roll each stat specifically and allow one re-roll. However, that re-roll can be used on your Wounds or Fate point roll instead of a stat if you so choose. Worse results stand.

I rolled: WS-41, BS-41, S-49, T-48, Ag-39, Int-47, Per-40, WP-40, Fel-44. For chapter, I went with an Ultramarine for the +5 bonus to two stats of my choosing. I didn't want another Wolf and I didn't want to be the same chapter as my teammates. I placed the +5 into WS and T. On my armor roll, I actually got "A Fury like Lightning" (which was the armor I wanted 2nd most, right behind the +5 WS armor). Subsequently, I spent my experience on simple WS, S, Ag, and Dodge. My character now looks like this: WS-51, BS-41, S-54, T-53, Ag-49, Int-47, Per-40, WP-40, Fel-44. I have the Favoured Son solo mode ability, Wrathful Descent, and Swift Attack.

Once we finish Final Sanction and Oblivion's Edge, I'll be looking to get Two-Weapon Fighting (as I love the concept). I can't requisition another Chainsword at the moment. I think with my next XP I'll increase WS and Ag again.

Unless I am mistaken, I have 7 BS less than my Devastator did, but can function essentially equally as well in ranged combat. I'm genuinely excited about the Rank 2 Assault Marine abilities (whereas I had no intent to purchase the Devastator options).

+I should note we may be adding a 5th member to the team as well. No idea what he'll be. Up to this point, we've each tried to be completely unique+

Any advice on where to take my Assault Marine from here? Am I completely off-base in what I've surmised from our first night of playing?

Devastators wielding the heavy bolters of doom are sadly a one trick pony, however effective they might be, but they are fine for the people who want supreme ranged damage. On my list of specialisations devastators definitely take the least interesting slot, however assault marines take the next one, both specialisations are just too specialised for my liking. In regards to advice though, in my group the assault marine went the commando path, specialising in melee and stealth, as well as some skills to support that. Depending on the kinf of character you want to play the frenzy line of talents might be itneresting as well.

Also, I noticed that you bought Dodge. if you check pg 36, it states you start with dodge. The character sheet is missing a couple things you start with.

With out knowing what chapter you made your devestator I will tell you that is the best way to balance thier abilities is to consider chapter advances. A Black Templar and DA Libraian eh? How did that work out for ya?

After perusing the book today, I'm seriously considering switching to Blood Angel.

The Black Templar and Librarian are amusing. They tend to jab at one another in real life as it is.

Quick reply, by point:

1) You are indeed missing something. Firstly, your class-based ability which allows Devestators to do two hits for every one against hordes, or an extra +1d5 with blast weapons. Secondly, you need to look ahead at the talents. Looks at yours: Shooty. Look at the Assault guys: Choppy. They will never come close to touching you with firearms, and vice versa regarding close combat. I'll draw your attention to 'storm of iron' (I think that's the one!) in particular. The situation is made better/worse by the varying cost of statistics for characters. Dev=cheap BS. Assault= cheap WS.

2) They really aren't. Yes: You are not good at close combat. It's the Assault marine's job to keep you 'clean' and back from the front line so that you can do your job: Killing hundreds of foes at range. Remember also that Hordes attacks cannot be parried or dodged, so fighting them at range is normally a better option, as they have less ranged attacks.

3) Anyone can operate at a mix of ranged and melee. It's just some classes aren't great at one of them. The Dev and Tac are good at shooting, while the Assault is good at melee. Nobody is anything close to good all-round.

If you're in melee as a Dev, you need to talk to your co-players about team-work. While you are fending off Stealers, you could be killing them. Stay in the middle, and make sure they stop stuff getting to you, so you can stop stuff getting to them. As regards the two attacks... well, if you look at it pretty much everyone except Assault marines are pretty poor in melee until much later on in the game.

While it's not against the rules for assault marines to carry heavy weapons, it does beg the question 'where are you carrying the heavy bolter while using two chainswords?' and GMs have the right to always say 'no' to weapon selections. As another note, Devs in melee are better off blazing away with a bolt pistol than swinging a combat knife, generally.

Also... I may have mis-read this, but you *all* read Final Sanction?

While the Dev may do some extra damage, he is not getting any unique abilities. Looking at my Rank 1 Assault Marine, that I subsequently switched to Blood Angels, I've already got Frenzy and Battle Rage. Soon, I'll be adding Assassin Strike and Two-weapon Wielding. I get cool abilities that none of the rest of my squad have. At such an early level, I'm the only one with multiple attacks too. I feel unique with a cool skillset. Everyone else can fire full auto, etc. as I have already listed.

Another concern can be boiled down to this. Final Sanction has been outside so far (with the exception of one building). An Assault Marine can have a Bolter and have a good time moving around outside as well, eventually closing on CQC. What would a Devastator do on an entire mission that took place inside a Space Hulk or a Fortification? Just doesn't seem balanced.

We all read the first 21 pages. Not the actual mission content. Only the GM read that.

Wolf 11x said:

Uhm, Franzy, Battle Rage and Assasin Strike are all BA abilities...you could buy them for any BA char. So this isn't a good base argument to uniqueness

Inside a Building or a Space Hulk he buys "Cleans and Purify" and a Heavy Flamer^^. Or just uses a Storm Bolter...

A few points when reading the initial post, although I can be misunderstanding something:

• Unrelenting devastation, or whatever the spec ability for devs is called, is just tremendous vs hordes (add in storm of iron later for more 'horde gone in a round' action). But yes, a dev is pretty dull from my point of view, as you mostly shoot stuff. Heavy Bolter is usually your only weapon throughout the game too, as most players don't find the alternatives any good compared to it. Devs are the best shooty type there is, by a long shot (hehe).
• Why can't you req another Chainsword? It's just 5 req, and you need the TWW (Melee) talent to use them both. Hell, you could use your combat knife in the offhand too, but I wouldn't recommend it.
• I've always prefer the 'roll 9 times and distribute the stats wherever you like, get one reroll'-way. Makes for a little more balanced character types, and you can design it by choice, and not get shafted by randomness (oh your character concept is a leader-type but you got crap Fellowship? oh well).
• I'm not that in love with Frenzy, as it in some situations is down right dangerous to have. I prefer some more control over my character. If someone else in your KT needs backup, you won't be giving them it with Frenzy on.
• You know that you can pick the number you roll on the armour history table, OR the entry below or above it right? So if you roll 4, you can still pick 3 or 5 if you choose. So you can still get your 1st pick.

The Devs certainly do get a good share of unique abilities, just as the assaults marines do. And just like the assaults, those abilities essentially help you kill things better. I think perhaps having only seen a limited application of firepower so far, you might be under-selling what heavy bolters can do. In fact most GMs here seem to advocate nerfing them heavily.

But it does indeed always come down to melee, because that's how GMs like it. In close quarters the Devs are a little more limited, but they can always just stand behind a meat-shield and fire over their shoulder with complete impunity! And if it gets close, it's not much of a problem. A bolt pistol fires three times, so even though the Dev only gets one attack roll, the foe needs to roll very well to avoid it all. Heck: You don't even need to pick dice up with a hand flamer!

But if you prefer a melee character, by all means stick with that. Just don't do it because you perceive melee as 'better', because it's really not as simple as that.

Interesting way to put it. I'm making a proposal within my group to change Wolves (for everyone) to +5 WS / Fel rather than +5 Per / Fel.

I actually have played 13th company since EoT and currently own a fully painted 2000 point army. I'd rather not pick my Chapter based on its bonuses, but I think the BA is just a bit over the top for my tastes. Counter Attack helps the Wolves, but only marginally so. The Wolves really took a hit within Deathwatch.

Wolf 11x said:

I'd rather see +5 WS/Per, but with the recent addition of Counter Attack and Flesh Render (awesome talent, btw) in the errata, SWs got their candy and I don't think they need more changes. Rites of Battle even has a special helm for the SWs so they can wear a helmet and still get the solo ability bonus, which is nice.

Wait, AND Flesh Render? I didn't see this.

They get Counterattack for free, but Flesh Render costs them 500xp.

Siranui said:

In hand to hand you only get a standard attack, which doesn't include semi or full atuo as per RAW. This isn't accounting for old DH rules or house rules.

@Wolf: Also a comparison of boltgun versus heavy bolter- as per RAW the boltgun shoots up to 4 shots a round on full atuo and does 2d10+5, a heavy bolter shoots up to 10 rounds and does 2d10+10, you will find in practice a significant damage difference. And everyone CAN get the HB, however it's expensive, and depending on how your missions are shaping up the whole balanced party may become more important than everyone toting around the death machines.