I think that it might be a nice idea to use an innocent bystander rule here. For every round fired that misses it's target. Roll a D10. On a 1 you hit a biological being, servitor, xenos or human and do normal damage. On a 10 you hit something you wish you had not hit. Like power cables, plasma vents, steam pipe, a holy icon etc. If the weapon is powerful enough you kill the being or damage the component.

The results, that while on the macro scale of things probably does not count, can make the local enviroment troublesome. Exploding tanks for example could count as exploding like a frag grenade. A rupture in a plasma conduit could send out bolts of like a plasma gun that fire randomly. Killing your own crew will have a negative effect on morale if done often enough and could jeopardize the proper functioning of the component the firefight is taking place in.

Fortinbras said:

Fortinbras said:

Shouldn't a lasgun require a lot less cleaning and maintenance than an SP weapon ?

- The SP weapon has a lot more moving parts.

- The SP weapon suffers wear from the friction of bullets moving down the barrel.

- The SP weapon has to deal with gunpowder residue building up inside it.

- The SP weapon has to have several parts open to the environment.

Why would someone expect a lasgun to stay in a working condition for longer than an SP weapon if neither are maintained ?

Sure, the lasguns charge is going to leak over time. But gunpowder can also degrade over time. However, if the lasgun has something to show how many shots remain, that same display will show how much charge has leaked. The SP doesn't have anything similar.

Sister Callidia- I like your way of thinking. Consider that yoinked (not had a firefight aboard any ship yet. Space stations hollowed from asteroids, pressure tents on airless worlds and giant city-carrying mecha, but not a ship).

I'll briefly raise a couple pieces of fluff (from the novels, so possibly add 25mg NaCl):

• There have been descriptions of naval armsmen using compact autoguns simply because they could be loaded with low velocity frangible rounds that were safe for use in the relatively close surroundings of shipboard combat.
  From this, I infer that there are probably a number of things in the average starship compartment and companionway that don't react well to bullets, and a number of hard surfaces that produce scary ricochets.
• There has been at least one instance (going back briefly to George Labour's point about plasma conduits) in which a plasma conduit was breached by a compact laspistol, flooding maybe three compartments on one level with sun-hot star-stuff. This happened deep within the ship, and during battle, no less. Macro-scale effect on the battle? Brief, but minor fluctuation of the power flow to the ship's tertiary shield generators, fixed when the DCC re-routed the plasma flow to a different conduit. Effect to the people in the effected compartment? Plasma bath

In addition to that, there was a brief piece in (either in the BBB or in WD) back when Battlefleet Gothic was first released, suggesting that the average crewman only got issued "weapons" during a boarding action (and even then, generally only to repel), while armsmen got issued shotguns and shotcannons to cut down on crew-inflicted ship damage and reduce the danger of ricochets. Energy weapons, such as lasguns, laspistols and melta and plasma weapons were to be limited to officers because of the extreme fire risk they apparently posed (evidently the writer of that had never heard of muzzle flash, or of the possibility of sparks when a fast-moving piece of metal strikes a hard surface).

Alasseo said:

Honestly we are talking about a more or less contemporary science fiction author here. They hardly know their physics. Even Avatar which was just released a year ago has huge flaws. More 40k specific, the Blood Angel codex writer believes Land Raiders to be air-droppable from Thunderhawks straight! onto the battlefield; including the Space Marines inside .

So yeah with the current lack of quality control regarding everday science, suspension of disbelief is the only thing we have to defend against that ^^.

Voronesh said:

the Blood Angel codex writer believes Land Raiders to be air-droppable from Thunderhawks straight! onto the battlefield; including the Space Marines inside .

To be fair, inertial dampeners inside the Land Raider could protect Space Marines. I mean, they from orbit in pods too.

I've always considered Lasguns less reliable over time due to a fair number of factors. The interior of a ship in my head is fifty percent Nostromo from Alien and fifty percent submarine. Occasional wafts of steam, condensation dripping over every surface. The crude arms lockers used to hold the weapons that the ratings use to repel boarding actions leak. SP weapons get rusty and unreliable, occasionally the trigger doesn't work. The electronics that make up the lasguns operation short out or corrode, making it a club at best. Wafting particles of grease and oil that coat every surface make theirway to the weapons. SP weapons don't really feel it, but a film of tacky grease on the focussing lens of a las weapon could lead to disastrous misfires. As for the ammunition. Gunpowder DOES lose its potency over time, but think of batteries left in electronic equipment. Las-clips are more likely to start to corrode, build up an unpleasant mass of ozone-stench chemicals on the contacts.

Even with a munitorium, most of these weapons aren't going to be stored there. Most of htese weapons are going to be in the bowels of the ship where they can be handed otu in emergencies. When you're in a 5km long vessel, you can't really distribute weapons to repel boarders that quickly from a single point. I fully agree with all the counter-points made... in the case of well maintained weapons. For the emergency, lower deck holdout weapons though? Constant maintenance really isn't going to be happening in most cases.

Voronesh said:

Maxim 11: Everything is air-droppable at least once

Badlapje said:

Have you ever heard a properly silenced weapon being fired? I have fired an MP5SD with subsonic ammo, and the only thing you can hear is the bolt moving.

Alasseo said:

Yes true, Once ^^.

@Millandson

Inertial dampers are good and well for the guys being transported, even though we had to dispute space issues. They arent size zero, yet the rules tell us so. But the guys driving the thing and manning the weapons will not have enough space for dampers(probably ^^). This is me hating the idea in the fluff, i love it when my enemies try to use it.

It seems curious to me that "Hunt for Red October" has been mentioned, and it seems that nobody remember the atmospheric processor scene of Aliens... You know...

>> Ripley: Lieutenant, what do those pulse rifles fire?
>> Gorman: 10 millimeter explosive tip caseless. Standard light armor piercing round, why?
>> Ripley: Well, look where your team is. They're right under the primary heat exchangers.
>> Gorman: So?
>> Ripley: So, if they fire their weapons in there, won't they rupture the cooling system?
>> Burke: [interjecting] Ho, ho, ho. Yeah, she's absolutely right.
>> Gorman: [turns round to Burke] So? So what?
>> Burke: Look, this whole station is basically a big fusion reactor...
>> [Gorman turns back to stare, horrified, at the screen]
>> Burke: ...right? So you're talkin' about a thermonuclear explosion and "Adiós, muchachos."
>> Gorman: Oh, great. Wonderful. S**t!

>> Gorman: [Calling Apone over the radio] Look, uh, Apone.
>> [Apone snaps his fingers]
>> Gorman: Look, we can't have any firing in there. I, uh, I want you to collect magazines from everybody.
>> Hudson: Is he f****n' crazy?
>> Frost: What do you expect us to use man, harsh language?
>> Gorman: Flame units only. I want rifles slung.
>> Apone: But, sir...
>> Gorman: [interrupting] Do it Apone, and no grenades.

I don't know what do you think, but my guess is that a bolter packs a BIGGER hole than the M41... Y'know... Rocket powered ammo taht pierces its objectiva and explode inside it...

SP weapons seems a bit more safe in some areas...

Just my two cents...

When it comes to equiping armsmen, I like to bear one thing in mind, training. Sure, buy all your armsmen a boltgun, but do they know how to use it? I can imagine the negotiation with the ad-mech now.

"We need 5,000 bolt guns"

"Statement: certainly, we can provide. Query: do the recipients know the correct rituals to supplicate the machine spirits of these weapons?"

"Ummm......"

Let's use the DH Guardsmen career as an example, you have to be at Seargent rank (2000 XP) before you can learn to use bolt guns. That is a decent amount of XP in DH terms. In RT terms, the party had better have best quality armsmen or the rank and file will be trained in only las and sp guns.

Hygric said:

Most certainly correct. A canny RT might add another order.

"We dont not yet have those, but we are looking into aquiring the services of 5000 Skitarii, if possible. My House can provide for a manifold resources useful to the faithful servants of the Omnissiah."

But yes the rank and file guardsmen only get to use Bolters when the arent rank and file anymore. Stormtrooper material.

kuroifremen said:

I was racking my brain tryng to think of another good example. Thank you!

Voronesh said:

I have to disagree here. Normally they don't get trained in it untill higher level because bolters, and the other high end resources are not considered disposable. The guardsmen are, until they prove their worth to be much greater than the average IG they won't be trusted with something as nice as a bolter.

However nothing saying you cant set up a training program to teach them how... 2-4 weeks should do the trick. Give them something to do during downtime.

NPCs are not PCs and do not follow the same rules. There is no logical reason a person cannot be taught how to operate and maintain a given weapon system. The fact that PCs canot be until certain requirements are met is purely a game mechanic.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Aye, another perfect example of why firing large-calibre weapons inside a cramped volitile environment is a distinctly bad idea.

MILLANDSON said:

Um...except this is exactly what Terminator armour and storm bolters were devolped for...cramped fighting in the volatile environment of a starship (boarding actions) and particularly inside space hulks....not to mention their compliment of support weapons - assault cannons, flamers and on the original terminator armour rapid fire grenade racks...

Unless of course terminator armour can survive rupturing a plasma coolant duct (which they can of course, being developed from civilian industrial armour capable of surviving orbital micrometeor strikes, and working inside plasma reactors).

As to the OP, there's certainly some issues with the way DH/RT/DW models bolters as opposed to SP or other weapons. They should be the weapons everyone wants...but aren't. So you're left to actually roleplaying their allure. The advantage of a bolter is that its a rare iconic weapon of the Imperium. When the chips are down, whip out and autogun and you're saying 'i'm just another mook'; whip out a bolt gun and...well...you're saying that you're somebody. Surely its 'cooler' to wield an icon than a work-a-day tool?

Luddite said:

It is cooler to win.

"Victory needs no explanation, defeat allows none."

llsoth said:

Indeed.

Which is my point - a bolter should be made of win and drowned in victory sauce.

As the rules currently stand, you're standing in the armoury wondering why you'd ever take a bolter when all these mook-guns, stubbers, auto-pistols, etc. often do a better job. :¬/

Bolters and lasguns are THE icons of 40k.

All PCs should be;

'Me sir! I'll have the bolt gun!'

'Sorry, not available'

'Oh. OK, i'll take a lasgun then'

'Sorry, not available'.

'Oh no. I'll have to go with this crappy autogun then...ah well, at least its not a stubber'...

But the mechanics don't model that so you have to grope about for some 'rule of cool' justification.

Actually bolters are better than almost all SP weapons.

Voronesh said:

I'm afraid the problem is with you, not the game. You're assuming the tabletop stats are a good basis for the RPG rules. They're not, simple as that. Space Marines are toned down for balance reasons, because it makes the game less fun to play when you only have one or two tactical squads taking on a whole IG army.

If you're having a tough time with Space Marines slaughtering your mooks, then maybe you shouldn't fight them. Because how can you not expect 5 Khorne Berzerkers to kill a few hundred armsmen?

Luddite said:

Terminator armour isn't really meant for repelling boarders, it's meant for boarding someone else's ship and making a huge mess of everything you come accross. They don't really have to care if they puncture a bulkhead, or make a power conduit explode, the armour they're wearing will protect them from whatever the danger is, and the ship is full of enemies to begin with, the more they kill the better. If they're capturing it, for some reason, then they can repair everything later without too much trouble.

On the defence, I'd imagine Astartes vessels tend to be made of stern enough stuff that a boarding action isn't likely to cause any serious damage.

llsoth said:

Which is interesting since this thread over at Dark Reign http://darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/forum/index.php?topic=3027.0 addresses what players think is the 'best weapon'. The bolter only gets a one or two mentions. Wierd.

Luddite said:

Most of those comments are from Dark Heresy and do not take into account the errata. Among other things DH boltguns do not have full auto capability. The errata on manstoppers (used to add 3 pen not up the pen to 3). So a armageddon autogun with manstoppers was pretty much uber. Not so with the errata and with RT weapons.

An ork has unnatural toughness and wears armor, which do you want 1d10+3 Pen 0 (autogun) or 1d10+5 Pen 4 tearing (boltgun) both can full auto and have the same range.. Which do you want?

Luddite said:

SP - Roll 1d10+(x). That's your damage. You have a 1 in 10 chance of rolling righteous fury.

Bolter - Roll 2d10 and discard the lowest result. You get two chances of rolling righteous fury. AND THEN you get to roll 2d10 and discard the lowest on every subsequent damage roll.

Dark Heresy players are insane.

Fortinbras said:

Well to be fair to the dark heresy players they may have been taking cost into account.

In DH the economic system is so messed up that even the nobel characters can barely afford to eat never mind afford to buy bolt shells at a fear check inducing 16 thrones per shell.

Well in a "Best of..." thread usually money is no object. It's sort of a fantasy place where you get to fantasize about bolters the same way we fantasize about Tau Pulse Rifles and Eldar Shuriken Pistols.