I have been playing the game for over a year now. Recently some guys join in and spot holes in the way we play.
I have already read the core rule book and the f&q but I am still confused on some problems.

1. Just to make sure, “trigger effects” are anything with a “phase:” or “response:” in front of it right? So ability such as the original Tywin Lannister doesn’t count right?

2. In what case a unique character cannot come into play? From what I learned is that only if the character is once played and then discard/killed from play, it cannot be played unless that copy of the card comes back out from discard/dead pile.

3. What are the cards that can cancel a plot card effect? There are cards that forces opponents to reveal a new plot card. Can I do it in plot phase before opponents take effect on a “revealed effect plot card?

4. Can everyone see a card when it is discarded from deck/hand/shadow? I believe the answer is yes since in f&q it says dead pile and discard pile can be seen by everyone.

5. If the support and redirect mechanism (for title) are chosen in the same challenge, who goes first?

6. If a challenge is redirected, can the attacker choose new stealth targets? As it applies to character on the defend side and now the side has changed.

7. I assume character with STR 0 cannot defend/attack even it has all the icons.

8. If several characters enter dead/discard pile simultaneously (eg: after Valar Morghullis), what will be the order?

9. Similar question: Does attachment discard at the same when the character leaves play? For example, if a character is attached with poisoned wine and he is killed. Can I now kneel influence to move it to other players?

10. The effect of Benjen Stark: put it simple, characters that die with him in Valar Morghullis doesn’t go back into the deck right?

11. There are attachments with words like “kneel that location” such as Martial Law. Is the location then knelt forever as the attachment is attached?

12. When an ability/effect requires you to kneel a location (not a cost), eg: Old Red Priest, can I use gold-producing only location to fulfill it?

13. In Bays of Ice, “a player” means any player? ? which means every one can take this action?

14. “Cards currently in shadow” includes all players’ shadow cards?

15. “By X or more total strength” means eg: attack A, defence B, A-B > = X?

16. Duplicates are any cards with the same name? No matter what version is it you can play it for free right?

Thanks!

I'll answer as best I can. Some of these I'm iffy on.

1. Just to make sure, “trigger effects” are anything with a “phase:” or “response:” in front of it right? So ability such as the original Tywin Lannister doesn’t count right?

Yes

2. In what case a unique character cannot come into play? From what I learned is that only if the character is once played and then discard/killed from play, it cannot be played unless that copy of the card comes back out from discard/dead pile.

You may not play another copy of a unique character if that character is in the dead pile. If it is in the discard pile you may play it.

3. What are the cards that can cancel a plot card effect? There are cards that forces opponents to reveal a new plot card. Can I do it in plot phase before opponents take effect on a “revealed effect plot card?

That I recall only Old Bear Mormont can cancel a when revealed effect of a plot card. Forgotten Plans can also blank other plots but only outside the plot phase. Effects in this game resolve completely before other effects can be played. So any when revealed effects must be fully resolved before a effect like Margaery Tyrell can switch them.

4. Can everyone see a card when it is discarded from deck/hand/shadow? I believe the answer is yes since in f&q it says dead pile and discard pile can be seen by everyone.

yes

5. If the support and redirect mechanism (for title) are chosen in the same challenge, who goes first?

Not sure what you are asking here.

6. If a challenge is redirected, can the attacker choose new stealth targets? As it applies to character on the defend side and now the side has changed.

The crown regent effect occours before stealth targets are chosen.

7. I assume character with STR 0 cannot defend/attack even it has all the icons.

Yes

8. If several characters enter dead/discard pile simultaneously (eg: after Valar Morghullis), what will be the order?

I believe the owner of the cards chooses

9. Similar question: Does attachment discard at the same when the character leaves play? For example, if a character is attached with poisoned wine and he is killed. Can I now kneel influence to move it to other players?

No, as soon as the character enters the morbund state so does the attachment.

10. The effect of Benjen Stark: put it simple, characters that die with him in Valar Morghullis doesn’t go back into the deck right?

correct

11. There are attachments with words like “kneel that location” such as Martial Law. Is the location then knelt forever as the attachment is attached?

No, it will stand during the standing phase as normal. The card would need to specify that it doesn't stand during the standing phase to keep it knelt.

12. When an ability/effect requires you to kneel a location (not a cost), eg: Old Red Priest, can I use gold-producing only location to fulfill it?

yes

13. In Bays of Ice, “a player” means any player? ? which means every one can take this action?

Yes

14. “Cards currently in shadow” includes all players’ shadow cards?

Possibly yes, which card are you reffering to?

15. “By X or more total strength” means eg: attack A, defence B, A-B > = X?

yes

16. Duplicates are any cards with the same name? No matter what version is it you can play it for free right?

yes

Darksbane said:

There is another possible scenario here. Say that Player 1 attacks Player 2 with a military challenge. Player 2 does not declare any defenders. Player 3 supports Player 2 and Player 4 has the Lord Commander Title. Player 3 wants to declare defenders for Player 2 (by the "Supports" rule) and Player 4 wants to redirect the challenge to himself. Who gets to defend? In that particular scenario, Player 3 (the supporting player) would get to defend before Player 4 (the Lord Commander) could use his Title. This is because the Lord Commander can only redirect the challenge toward himself if the challenge is undefended while the "supports" option is part or the original opportunity to declare defenders. That "declare defenders" opportunity has to pass - without anyone taking advantage of it - before the Lord Commander's play restrictions are met. Choosing to defend through the "supports" mechanic is part of that "declare defenders" opportunity that the Lord Commander has to wait for.

Darksbane said:

Darksbane said:

Darksbane said:

Darksbane said:

Darksbane said:

7. I assume character with STR 0 cannot defend/attack even it has all the icons.

Yes

9. Similar question: Does attachment discard at the same when the character leaves play? For example, if a character is attached with poisoned wine and he is killed. Can I now kneel influence to move it to other players?

No, as soon as the character enters the morbund state so does the attachment.

16. Duplicates are any cards with the same name? No matter what version is it you can play it for free right?

yes

7) I believe there's no rule that prevents you from declaring a Strength-0 character as an attacker or defender, but keep in mind that if the defending player has 0 strength total it will still be considered unopposed.

9) They do not enter the moribund state at quite the same time (step 3 and step 4 in the framework action window, respectively), but they both leave play in step 6. There's no opportunity to trigger an Any-Phase effect until the next Player Action Window opens up, at which point both character and attachment have been placed in their respective destinations. (See timing structure in the FAQ)

16) Yes, the title of the card is what matters, not the type. You probably know this, but keep in mind that duplicates refers only to unique cards.

That I recall only Old Bear Mormont can cancel a when revealed effect of a plot card. Forgotten Plans can also blank other plots but only outside the plot phase. Effects in this game resolve completely before other effects can be played. So any when revealed effects must be fully resolved before a effect like Margaery Tyrell can switch them.

So it is in fact very hard to avoid plot cards like Valar other than playing a counter plot card like The Power of Blood.

Be careful with the timing here. When a character dies (or somehow leaves play), the attachments that are on it are discarded by a game effect immediately. You can "save" these attachments from being discarded (assuming they also are attached to another character or returned to your hand) before this game effect resolves, but you will not have time to use any non-save or cancel Response to get them off of the card that is leaving play. A standard action (like Poison Wine's "Any Phase" effect) would be even later than a Response.

So ... if the attached character of Icy Catapult leaves play, Icy Catapult leaves play at the same time. So its ability will be triggered when it is in the discard pile. Is it an exception?

8. If several characters enter dead/discard pile simultaneously (eg: after Valar Morghullis), what will be the order?

I believe the owner of the cards chooses

So I am allowed to choose putting them in the order that benefits me the most? I know I cannot change their order. Since I think there are effects referring to eg the 1st x cards of the pile.

12. When an ability/effect requires you to kneel a location (not a cost), eg: Old Red Priest, can I use gold-producing only location to fulfill it?

Umm so what's the point of his ability ....

There is another possible scenario here. Say that Player 1 attacks Player 2 with a military challenge. Player 2 does not declare any defenders. Player 3 supports Player 2 and Player 4 has the Lord Commander Title. Player 3 wants to declare defenders for Player 2 (by the "Supports" rule) and Player 4 wants to redirect the challenge to himself. Who gets to defend? In that particular scenario, Player 3 (the supporting player) would get to defend before Player 4 (the Lord Commander) could use his Title. This is because the Lord Commander can only redirect the challenge toward himself if the challenge is undefended while the "supports" option is part or the original opportunity to declare defenders. That "declare defenders" opportunity has to pass - without anyone taking advantage of it - before the Lord Commander's play restrictions are met. Choosing to defend through the "supports" mechanic is part of that "declare defenders" opportunity that the Lord Commander has to wait for.

This is what I am asking and it is really really complex but you explained it well!

I have two more questions:

1. If I ask a player how many cards in hand he has, do he has to tell me?

2. There are effects/plot cards that allow you to put cards from dead/discard/deck/hand into play. Can I play it as a duplicate?

goldenhk said:

Yes very hard to avoid it totally something to save your character or Narrow Escape are the best Valar protection

goldenhk said:

I'm still trying to get the hang of some of the small timing details but I think Icy Catapult would use it's response in step 5 of the Framework Action Window as detailed in the FAQ. Step 6 is when it and the character would get placed in dead/discard pile.

goldenhk said:

Yes you can put them in whatever order you like but they go on top of any cards already in the pile

goldenhk said:

It is a negative ability to balance out the fact that you are only spending 1 gold on a tricon with 1 strength.

goldenhk said:

Yes

goldenhk said:

If it is of a unique card you have to play it as a duplicate if a copy of that card is already in play. If it is a non-unique card no, it cannot be a duplicate.

goldenhk said:

I really suggest you have a look at the FAQ, in particular the sections on timing structure and the moribund state of cards. In a nutshell, cards that leave play for whatever reason (kill, discard, etc.) do not move to their destinations (dead pile, discard pile, etc.) immediately, but enter a "moribund" state in which they can still be interacted with in certain ways (for example triggering a response). As a last step of the respective action window all moribund cards simultaneously move to their respective destinations. It takes a bit of "studying" to get the hang of it, but it's definitely worth it.

Regarding to the ability of Old Red Preist, doesn't gold producing locations still produce gold even after they are knelt

Also I am wondering about the effect "does not kneel to attack/defend". Does it mean the card can attack/defend even after its knelt?

Saturnine said:

"Moribund" is this game's version of "on the way out." It only applies to Response effects, and even then, only to Response effects that do not require the card "on the way out" to leave play as part of the cost.

For the Icy Catapult example, the Response is technically triggered from play, but after the attachment itself has technically been discarded because its attached character died. It happens in a very, very brief period between the attachment being successfully discarded and the card being placed physically in the discard pile.

goldenhk said:

goldenhk said:

The "does not kneel to attack/defend" contradicts the rule that in order to attack or defend, you must kneel the character. So when you declare it as an attacker/defender, you would not kneel it - and it would be available for any other challenges it would be eligible to declare it in, too. However, the effect does not contradict the eligibility requirement that in order to be declared as an attacker or defender, the character must be standing. So if the character is knelt by some other means (like The Lion's Will or Drunken Allegations), it will not be eligible to be declared in the first place, even though you would not have been required to kneel it when declaring it as a participant in a challenge.

Thanks. I look at F&Q. The timing is very clear now.

Just to make sure, the first player Always has the chance to point out the order of responses that happen in the same step right?

No.

The "does not kneel to attack/defend" contradicts the rule that in order to attack or defend, you must kneel the character. So when you declare it as an attacker/defender, you would not kneel it - and it would be available for any other challenges it would be eligible to declare it in, too. However, the effect does not contradict the eligibility requirement that in order to be declared as an attacker or defender, the character must be standing. So if the character is knelt by some other means (like The Lion's Will or Drunken Allegations), it will not be eligible to be declared in the first place, even though you would not have been required to kneel it when declaring it as a participant in a challenge.

Not that I don't believe you, but I looked through rule book and F&Q and there is no sign saying standing is the initial requirement for a challenge, but only that kneeling is the cost of declaring attacker/defender. Can you give a proof for that? I personally think what you said make sense, but the reason I am asking the question is because my friend is using Martell and it is a big deal for his plot cards. Thanks.

OK, I may have said it "backwards" from the rule book, but it is there:

From pp13-14 of the Core Set rule book (English language version):

Step 1: Declare attackers
First declare the type of challenge being initiated
(military, intrigue, or power), and which player
you are challenging. Then declare attackers by
kneeling any number of your characters that have
the corresponding challenge icon (or are enabled
to participate by some card effect). Already
kneeling characters may not be declared as attackers.
You must declare at least one attacking
character to initiate a challenge.

And similarly, from p14:

Step 2: Declare defenders
The opponent you are challenging now has the
option to kneel any number of his or her characters
that have the corresponding challenge icon
(or are enabled to participate by some card effect)
to defend against your challenge. Already kneeling
characters may not be declared as defenders.
Your opponent must declare at least 1 defending
character in order to be considered defending
against a challenge.

There is no practical difference between "in order to be declared as an attacker/defender, the character must be standing" and "already kneeling characters may not be declared as attackers/defenders." They mean the same thing.

goldenhk said:

The first player chooses which passive effect happens first, if they activate at the same time (e.g. Counting Favors and Rule by Decree).

During framework action window (e.g. during challenge resolution), the first player has the first opportunity to trigger the response.

During player action window (e.g. after playing a card on table during marshalling), the player to the left of the person who initiated the action has the first opportunity to respond. The same with going out of Shadows.

The first player also chooses destination of a card if there is a conflict (e.g. character is discarded and killed at the same time).

Finally the first player chooses who wins if both player accumulate 15 or more power at the same time.

Just to expand on that a bit more: If two players both want to trigger a Response, the game's timing structure decides the order. The First Player can never tell someone when they can or cannot use a triggered effect.

Thanks ktom, and everyone else. We played last night and seemed problem solved.

Now I am wondering what does the single word "setup" in the text box mean? That it can be played during setup?

goldenhk said:

Setup
Cards with the “Setup” keyword may be played
during step 5 of the Game Setup.

So, you usually cannot include attachments in your 5-gold worth of cards you place face-down during the Setup of the game. If the attachment has the "Setup" keyword, you can - provided you also place a character that it can be attached to.

Just looking at the cards, for Rhaenys's Hill's effect, it states:

"Any Phase: Kneel and discard Rhaenys's Hill from play to put all characters in a single opponent's dead pile into play under your control until the end of the phase. At the end of the phase, return those characters to their owner's dead pile."

Does the two sentences count as two different effects that I can cancel only the later one?

goldenhk said:

1. The two sentences do count as different effects, but they cannot be canceled independently. Cancels always interrupt the initiation and resolution of an effect. Because these effects are both created by the same initiation (triggering Rhaenys's Hill), interrupting that initiation will cancel all associated effects (namely, putting all those characters in to play and creating a "return to dead pile" condition on them). If you cancel the triggered effect, you cancel all of it.

2. An astute observer will notice that there is a "second initiation" for the "at the end of the phase" part of the effect. Is it possible to cancel just that effect at that point at the end of the phase? Theoretically, it should be possible, but in practical terms, it is not because:

• "At the the end of the phase," it is the lasting effect that is initiating/resolving. It no longer counts as a triggered effect (since it happens whether you want it to or not, it doesn't qualify as a triggered effect), and it no longer counts as a location effect (the location created the lasting effect, but that location is long-gone at this point). So, you would need an effect that canceled a "lasting, passive effect." There are none in the game.
• The FAQ describes that "at the end of the phase," no Response effects can be triggered. That means you cannot play any effects that would save or cancel anything during the "end of phase" framework. So even if an appropriate (lasting, passive effect) cancel existing, the timing structure would not allow you to play it.

So, your option is to cancel the entire effect of Rhaenys' Hill (never putting characters in to play), or to resolve the entire "return to dead pile" effect as well (never being able to keep the "zombie" characters through the save or cancel mechanism).

So what is the point of stating the "separate effects" in the F&Q? Just to state that the effect are independent to each other, no A then B relationship?

And I got another question:

While a character is stood during the duration of the challenge, does its STR still count towards the final resolution?

Also when a response states when "a character is knelt", it means when it is knelt in every condition right., including declared as attacker and defender.

eg:

Joffery Baratheon in Tales from the red keep. I knell Joffery Caratheon and kneel him as an attacker. After opponent declares defender, since he knelt character, I pay one gold and stand Joffery then I claim one power for him. He still counts his 3 STR in the challenge and I win/lose.

Are we playing it correctly? There is another case of standing a defending character with Frozen Outpost? Are they essentially the same case? I believe we are since there cards that specific on removing the character from a challenge.

goldenhk said:

goldenhk said:

Standing a character that is participating in a challenge does not remove it from the challenge. Taking away its icon does not remove it from the challenge. If it was legally made an attacker or defender, it ads its STR to challenge resolution unless something actually says "remove it from the challenge."

goldenhk said:

So if an icon of a character is removed during the challenge, its STR is counted as 0 but does not remove him from challenge right?

goldenhk said:

Removing an icon from participating character doesn't make its STR 0 - it does nothing, since character already participates. Appropriate icon is only needed when you want to declare a character as attacker or defender (just like standing requirement). After declaration an icon or standing state doesn't matter.

goldenhk said:

After playing for a while, I got some more questions here:

1. Threat from the North and -X STR, if = 0 is killed combo: so if the character's STR is 0, is it killed or discarded?

2. City of Shadows Agenda: Does it means the out of house penalty is reduced to one? Eg: I can play Venomous Blade and it only takes 1 gold to bring it out of shadow.

3. Greatjon Umber: Does it means it is very effective against characters like The Fox's teeth and Stannis Barathoen?

goldenhk said:

The first player decides see FAQ (2.5)

goldenhk said:

There is no out-of-House penalty for bringing cards out of Shadows, because they are "put into play." The Agenda lets you ignore the "House X only" deckbuilding restriction on cards with the Shadow crest. If you bring a non-neutral card out of Shadows that does not have your House affiliation, you pay one additional gold to do so. All in-house Shadow cards still cost the printed amount to bring out of Shadows. Out-of-House Shadow cards cost printed cost +1.

goldenhk said:

Yes.

I think you cancel all of it, or you cancel none of it. The different sentences matters when you have things like CS Cersei, where the kneel effect doesn't need to be fulfilled for the not standing effect to take place.