N0-1_H3r3 said:

I have to say that for elite-grade and troop-grade orks, I've found that they need a bit more dakka to pose a threat and come across as 'realistic' orks, as without RF they are pretty useless at range. The autoguns are fine for puny human weapons, but orks are big, and like big guns, so I think the stats are selling them a little short. I've just increased the damage on them by 3 points, and tend to give elites something with a bit more punch too.

You know what pisses me off? I remember reading about Deathwatch being somewhat compatible with RT and DH.

But now that is has been published, one can see that almost every RT and DH foe has to be rebalanced for DW characters. I mean, we had Ork and Eldar stats, we even had Genestealers and Liktors which we (so I thought) could add to the DW tyranids. But nooo, they're all to freaking weak in comparison.

If you compare the Final Sanction genestealer with the DH genestealer you you might ask yourself why the same enemy suddenly is about three times harder to defeat than he was before, depending on if he encounters a group of acolytes or a space marine kill-team. If the games really were compatible, that should make no difference. But I'm digressing.

I really like the stats you've created, I think I will implement them in my next adventure. My group becomes sick of tyranids, time to let them face the green tide

Arkhan said:

Actually, if you look at the profiles I've used, they're actually very close to official versions in other sources - compare my Dire Avenger to the one in Creatures Anathema (the Exarch is different, but then I regard all the creatures in Ascension as being woefully underpowered in general).

The thing is, that it's much harder to make something forwards-compatible (parrticularly without unduly limiting yourself later) than to make something backwards-compatible - I don't regard it as surprising that creatures published in books pre-Deathwatch are underpowered in hindsight, but I don't see the issue as being so prevalent as you do.

Arkhan said:

Two factors - firstly, the Deathwatch genestealers (plural, as there's a version in The Emperor Protects as well) aren't actually that much tougher than those in Creatures Anathema or the strain seen in Into the Storm . - they're all around TB6 with 4-5 armour and 20 or so wounds. The biggest differences are in offensive capability, giving the Deathwatch ones Unnatural Strength and (in the case of the ones in The Emperor Protects) additional rules found only in the Deathwatch rulebook (Preternatural Speed, and the Razor-Sharp quality on their claws), which I feel better represents the Genestealers' traditionally universal lethality (2nd edition 40k, each one had 4 WS7, Str 6 attacks... nobody survived a Genestealer's charge) than their depiction in earlier 40kRP sources. A Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader character can just as easily kill a Deathwatch Genestealer... they just have to work that much harder to survive its attacks.

Secondly, if any creature is deserving of variation in depiction between multiple sources, it's a Tyranid - their innate variability is one of their key advantages, and I'm personally glad that it's represented. There is no guarantee that two genestealers from two different infestations will be the same, afterall.

Yeah, I know genestealers are different depending on the host they spawn from, but 1d10+7 damage against 2d10+12 damage, come on, is Avalos populated by people of Ogryn descent? It just seems not right that foes which players faced as DH acolytes are now when they play space marines only marginally less lethal than they were before.

Where's the "now I'm a mighty Space Marine and not a puny human anymore" feeling for the players when I upgrade every monster so that it poses just about the same threat to them as SMs as it did in DH as acolytes?

I know that this is not an unsolvable problem, I already included Liktors in DW, but as I said, in my opinion FFG could have developed DW in a way that the old adversaries still functioned. This way I feel a little like doing their work for them.

Well frankly I got that feeling...

Cause in TEP, we killed 50 'stealers, not a puny one lost on a $h1tty planet somewhere in the Imperium...

Man...5 marines...50 stealers...Do your PCs in DH get a 1:10 ratio ? And I mean 1 marine 10 stealers dead, cause all the damage we got was like some flesh wounds and the Storm Warden Assault burning a fate point for having charged 3 stealers (silly move is silly...).

So I wouldn't say there is no difference. Marines KILL things. Many times. You'd say the problem is the stealers are able to kill marines, well, in fluff too...Look a Space Hulk : you need frikkin' Terminators to cleanse a Space Hulk...

So I don't really think the upgrading of the stealers is problematic in Deathwatch. It is problematic because it existed, but maybe the 'nids from DH were too low I mean, I wouldn't expect a band of acolytes to kill a 'stealer if they don't have some nice advantage (like, surprise and loads of prometheum to teach him how to swim...).

Since the DH came out first, maybe the stealers aren't too weak, maybe the marines are too strong. Maybe that's why we have to ugrade every single foe from the old rulebooks.

I don't know what rank your marines are, my group is rank 2, and if 50 stealers would come at them they would be dead in one freaking round. When I send some, I send about 5 or 6, that's enough to pose a serious threat without wiping them out.

My point is not that I want my marines to kill a shitload of genestealers. My point is that the threat level of an adversary should be consistent in all the rulebooks. That is what upset me when DW came out. That this consistency had been broken.

I didn't say we killed them outright in a plain, of course. There was some trickiness inside, and some fireworks based on melta bombs for the rest. And we were rank 2. And of course we did what we had to to not fight 50 stealers at the same time - that would kill anybody, even some frikkin' termies...

What I'm saying is that I don't see them as overpowered, and I - personally - think the upgrade is good as it represents the deadliness of the stealers. Once again, when you're a simple acolyte and you find yourself in front of that...You're screwed . The problem would be that stealers are included in DH, where the PCs should have no way to defeat them except by tricking them into a trap, sort of. Then again, I'm only speaking fluff-wise , the rest is up to you and your players.

If you think stealers should not be a problem for your marines, feel free to use the DH profiles, but I wouldn't feel that as appropriate.

No ,you're right, it's much more plausible that genestealers pose a threat to marines. That's why I, as I said, upgrade them and all the other foes, who do not (yet) have their new stats (like Liktors for instance).

I don't know if though if genestealers would really be unbeatable by a determined group of acolytes. I think the gap between marines and acolytes may be a little too large, leading to the problem of all DH adversaries being too weak to pose a threat to marines and vice versa all DW adversaries being just plain deadly for acolytes.

Of course, that's all just grumbling about things that cannot be changed anymore, the rules are set. The most important point is, both DH and DW are fun

Arkhan said:

The NPCs on Avalos are pretty beefy for mere humans. There is something in the follow up for TEP about how the GM may want to write a mission to investigate the spirit of the land that nurtures and protects them... Could also be that the stealers there benefit from being nourished by the golden planet's biomatter. If so I'd hate to see what happens if the fleet devours this mega nutritious bio-snack!

That sounds interesting, I think I have to get my hands on that book

Arkhan said:

The most important point is, both DH and DW are fun

Well I do hope you only play games where you have fun

For the difference between acolytes and Space Marines...Well, this is where the problems begin, yeah. I think the difference between a rank 1 Marine and a rank 1 Acolyte is pretty accurate, according to the 40k fluff.

Plus if you look at it, when your Acolytes will have earned their 13 000 XP, they're gonna be quite beefy, too.

And you're right, Acolytes should be able to deal with genestealers. What I mean is that they couldn't beat a fluff genestealer face-to-face is the stealer is not too far away. And from a distance, well, we all know that simple torchlights won't do much harm.

If they have a plan or a trick to ambush the beast, then there's no reason why they can't beat it.

Arkhan said:

Look at it from design perspective: The DH stealers were written before DW was printed. They were written to pose a massive threat to DH PCs (which they do). The writer did not know what the stats of the future space marines would be, nor considered that they should 'balance' stealers for an RPG that had not been written yet. Instead they did what any good GM should do with frightening foes: Stat them to be very dangerous, but also to be just about killable still. They weren't to know that 'just about killable' to DH was 'easily killable' to DW.

Yep, I can fully understand that, my problem is less with the DH or RT books, but with the DW book.

As I said, it's fun to play and an overall very good game, but I wished FFG had developed it in a way that it would now be compatible with DH and RT. I can't believe that this would not have been possible.

By basically going from a 1d10+x game to a 2d10+x game, you have to rebalance all the old adversaries from the creatures anathema.

That's totally possible, and I'm doing it for my adventures, but as I said, it would have been unnecessary and therefore when tweaking an enemy I'm always like "now I have to sit here and rebalance the stats only because FFG found it wise to add 1d10 to their system *grumble*"

But then we'd have a game where Deathwatch marines were no tougher than Acolytes. I personally prefer that a few monsters need toughening up than the alternative of down-powering marines.

There is a wide space of possibilities between current space marine power and acolyte power. It's not that if I go ahead and chip off a tiny bit from the space marine power they suddenly stand on one level with acolytes.

No one can truly believe that it hadn't been possible for FFG to integrate space marine stats into the current DH/RT system.

Erm... but they are integrated. Marines are better at killing stuff, but the systems do work together, so long as the group are mature enough to handle the fact that the finest fighting men in the galaxy are... better at fighting than a bunch of hive-world scum who work for the Inquisition.

If they were integrated, then I would not need to upgrade the DH Genestealer or Liktor in order to represent their threat to a space marine as presented in fluff.

Arkhan, you are complaining about the Intro adventure Genestealers that don't have Tearing on their claws?

If memory serves, no books available, the stealers in CA have Tearing, they are just lacking Razor Sharp for the extra pen. The 2d10 is just a simple way to represent 1d10 - Tearing for those unfamiliar with the system.

Integrated does not mean balanced, though. nWoD products are integrated, but that doesn't mean a mortal will be able to deal with the same threats as a werewolf.

Well, I meant integrated as "balanced". If I integrate something into something else then it fits without further adjustment. I never played World of Darkness so I can't say anything to that.

@ItsUncertainWho:

I'm not complaining about the genestealers in final sanction, no. I'm pointing out that the old DH/RT enemies cannot be used for DW adventures without rebalancing. I just mentioned genestealers as an example.

Arkhan said:

Well, you specifically called out the stealers from Final Sanction.

All of the DH and RT enemies are perfectly viable. The majority of them just get dropped into a Horde. No modification needed. Any other, bigger enemy needs only minimum, if any, tweaking. Maybe add a few wounds or a trait from DW and your good.

The other thing is enemies, especially in DW, must not be played dumb. The GM must run smart enemies that use tactics, call in support, use suppressing fire, flank, etc otherwise the marines will wipe the floor with them.

I tweak everything I throw at my players no matter what system I use, so I don't see that as any issue at all. Balance is a matter of taste and not necessity, you are not playing a video game.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Yes, I mentioned them because their damage output is about 3 times higher than the DH genestealer. This served as an example that DH in fact does need tweaking.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Ah, so it fits the universe when a space marine kill team slaughters a whole group of liktors in one single round because their low armor and wound value degrades them to pityful victims? Or should a GM run them in hordes? I can already see the vast hordes of liktors roaming through the streeets as if they were hormagaunts.

Ork Nobz. Huge green beasts, fluff wise a kind of boss enemy and easily a match for a single space marine. Damage output 1d10+9 pen 2.Do I have to say more?

I'm not going to list everey adversary now, these examples should be enough to see that not EVERY enemy is PERFECTLY viable. For DW they need tweaking in order to represent the fluff. Without they are simply too weak.

And that is because they were adapted to fight DH characters

So DH "de-scaled" the enemies.

Point proven.

Stormast said:

Which is just the reverse way of saying exactly what I mentioned earlier. I said DH enemies needed upgrading in order to function in DW.

Arkhan said:

Yes, actually - the 1d10+9 you're referring to is incorrect anyway - the Nob alone should deal +10 damage due to SB8 (per Creatures Anathema) and the Crushing Blow talent, for a total of 1d10+11.

Beyond that, the creature being weak compared to what it's supposed to be has nothing to do with Deathwatch, which was pretty much still just an idea when Creatures Anathema was written. The relative incapability of the Creatures Anathema versions of the Genestealer, Lictor, Ork Nob, the Daemons in the Dark Heresy rulebook, and so forth, are more noticeable when used in a Deathwatch or Ascension context, but the problem is not linked to, not restricted to, games involving characters of that sort of power.

Further, it should always be remembered that any two creatures of the same broad type will be different without good reason - the NPC profiles provide a convenient representation, but any two Ork Nobs, or any two varieties of Genestealer, will have inherent differences. Background-wise, both Orks and Tyranids actually are extremely well-suited to being scaled appropriate to their conditions, with Tyranids adapting and evolving swiftly to overcome adversity, and Orks growing stronger and tougher as a physiological reaction to an abundance of violence (which actually means that the Orks a Space Marine force is sent to deal with may well actually be bigger and more dangerous than those encountered by a group of Imperial Guardsmen elsewhere).

Arkhan said:

No, not every enemy is perfectly viable... but it isn't the massive problem you're making it out to be.

Look at the rules I've posted - the differences between those and any official equivalents are minimal at best, and I can say with complete honesty that every single change I've made is a matter of my interpretation of the setting and how to translate it into mechanics, rather than perceived discrepancy between creatures designed for Dark Heresy compared to those designed for Deathwatch (which my instincts tell me has more to do with the difficulty of making things forwards-compatible, and the personal interpretations of the writers at the time of development than anything else - it isn't a deliberate choice to scale the two games differently, merely a consequence of Creatures Anathema and everything before it having been written nearly two years before Deathwatch was developed).

Aside from a few matters specific to Deathwatch (the Troops/Elites/Master creature grades, Horde-specific rules, Squad Mode abilities, and limiting myself only to Skills/Talents/Traits found in the Deathwatch rulebook), the Eldar stats I've presented are all essentially the same as those I use for my own Rogue Trader game. The Ork rules I did are based on my experiences and interpretations from having written tens of thousands of words about the Orks in three of the current Rogue Trader supplements, including having written the rules for playing Ork Freebooters in Into the Storm .

In summary... you claim that Dark Heresy creatures need upgrading to function in Deathwatch; I disagree, with the caveat that I believe that some creatures from Dark Heresy books need upgrading to function properly regardless of the game they're in.