Hi all,

I need help from wiser heads than mine. An argument occurred yesterday that we couldn't resolve via FAQ. As per most rules queries we found this by playing. We were just setting up as usual; the players were picking their heroes at random while I was setting up the quest board etc. When I had finished I picked up my OL deck and asked what heroes they had and what skills. This was when the new bloke in our group (invited by one of my mates) piped up and said that they shouldn't have to tell me what skills they had or that I should choose my treachery cards before they pick their heroes then tell me what they had. This hadn't occurred to me to do it any other way. After all, their cards are face up all of the time (no feats)! He reckoned it was an unfair advantage where I could plan to take them down (everyone just looked at each other) to which I replied that I was pretty sure I was supposed to plan to take them down, after all I get to see the map, monsters, special quest rules in advance and the treachery balances out by the fact that I have only a finite amount of treachery to spend and that they are drawn at random during the game. To which he replied with: "Are you 100% certain "check the rules".

So I sighed, knowing there was little chance of finding anything, cast a look towards my friend (looking very sheepish by this point) who had invited this guy and picked up the FAQ hardcopy. Not very long after that I gave up since the other players were getting restless (one o the hardest things as OL is keeping things flowing, my players are bloody impatient! 4 against 1! us poor Overlords haha) and just picked the damned treachery without knowing what they had.

We didn't even get to finish the quest as the annoying bloke kept questioning everything(!) which was another kick in the nads. Does anyone have a player like this? Someone who takes winning so seriously they don't care about hacking off people they just met? Every decision/rule is met with questions and analysed down to the smallest detail? Someone who makes you seriously weigh the pros and cons of assault?

Suffice it to say I doubt I'll allow this guy back but I have a dilemma for furture quests now: do I select treachery without knowing the heroes and skills? or go back to before? I know which my group would choose! Am I wrong? Was this guy right all along? Man, I coul say that this would be a blow to all sensible, enjoyable players who just like a laugh. But the real reason is I hate this guy.

So I'd really appreciate some guidance from fellow players and OL's here in my vendetta against one man.

What would YOU do?

Cheers!

Red Die Guy said:

I think we've all known people like this from time to time. Heck, I'm sure a few of the people who frequent these forums ARE people like this. It's sort of a hazard of the hobby, I think. In fairness, though, some people who question the rules this intently do so out of a firm respect for fairness, not so much out of a desire to win at all costs. You can tell which is which by how he handles finding out that a rule works against his favour.

Not inviting him over again is probably the easiest way to go, and it sounds like your friend who brought him in has realized the gravity of the situation, too, so that's good.

Red Die Guy said:

Well, here's what the Well of Darkness rules have to say about choosing Treachery:

"At the start of each quest, before the game begins (step 6B) , the overlord receives a certain amount of treachery with which he can customize his base overlord deck."

And here's the setup sequence, step by step, from the base rules:

1. Choose Overlord Player
2A. Choose Heroes
3A. Set Up Hero Markers
4A. Deal Starting Skill Cards
5A. Purchase Starting Equipment
6A. Collect Conquest Tokens and Place Hero Figures
2B. Choose a Quest
3B. Randomize the Chest Markers and Lay Out Monster Reference Cards
4B. Create the Game Board
5B. Put Starting Pieces on the Board

Setting aside the somewhat odd enumeration they chose, I think it's fairly clear that picking treachery cards is the LAST thing to happen during set up. There's nothing in the rules to suggest that hero cards or skills are hidden after they've been drawn (steps 2A and 4A respectively) so I'd say you're well within your rights to know what they have before picking treachery cards. You could even wait to see which specific spaces they put their heroes in by the starting glyph before picking your treachery, since that's step 6A! (Although I suppose a quibble could be made that it must be done concurrently with 6A, we've still ruled out the whole "hiding skills" thing anyway.)

Honestly though, I'm not sure how much knowing heroes and skills would influence my treachery picks. Maybe a little, but my decisions tend to be based more on the map and - to no small degree - on the players themselves. If there's one thing I've learned about OLing Descent, it's that knowing how to play the players is sometimes more effective than knowing how to play the game. Had I been in your situation I probably would have just explained that to him and seen if it made a difference. Had he still insisted I would've just picked treachery without seeing the heroes, even though that's not how the rules appear to work.

Treachery cards are selected as the last step of the OL´s set-up. According to the base rules, steps 2A to 6A (hero set up) and 2B to 5B (OL set up) should (but not have to) be done in parallel. Nothing indicates that 6B has to be done in parallel as well or that the heros may keep their heros and skills secret. In step 6A the hero figures are placed on the map, so at that point the OL will know which heros just entered. Regarding skill cards, they are placed face up according to the set up rules, I can´t find any indication that there is a time when they are placed face down.

From the WoD rules:
At the start of each quest, before the game begins (step 6B), the
overlord receives a certain amount of treachery with
which he can customize his base overlord deck.

As for the annoying guy, I would give him one more chance, maximum, then kick him out via his nuts, if he doesn´t change.

It´s called TREACHERY, after all. They have traitors amongst or around them, who tell the OL their weaknesses.

Edit: Steve-O, you darn ninja!

Parathion said:

Nice one guys. Glad to see consensus is on the side of reason!

Steve-O, I've been stung by Brightwing once before when using dark glyphs and I am loathe to be stung again. Hence why I check if anybody has her. Bar that I probably adjust my treachery choices based on the quest itself as you said. I'm a big fan of master ferrox spawn (damage can be disgusting and easy to avoid LOS due to single space models) so always makes my deck.

Parathion, I'll ask the other players what they want to do. If they say they'll play with the guy then I'll go along with it. That will be his last chance. But I am quite sure my mate won't invite this guy again.

Much appreciated for the concise responses.