Recently my dad has gotten into WW2 re-enactment and came across something called a sleeve gun, used by SOE for close range kills. It struck me as something very apropriet for the work we all get up to. This is the first time i have done this so any advise/surgestions would be welcome.

Name - Sleeve gun

Class - special ( due to being mounted on the forearm under the cloves this weapon can not be used as other weapons)

Range - 10m

ROF - s/-/-

Damage 1D10+2 / Special (if the target is unaware of any hostile intentions involving the user they can attempt a surprise kill using this weapon. the user must pass an agility (-10) test to represent going from a non hostile stance to aiming and fireing the weapon for a sure kill. this however can only be done on foes that are human or equivilant size/shape)

Pen - 0

Clip - 1

Rld - 2Full

Special - Built in silencer, reliable

Wt - 1 Kg

Cost - 150

Availability - scarce

Type - solid projectile

Description - A wepon used by many undercover agents and asasins. This weapon fits sungly on the forearm and is cociled under the everyday garbs, it allows many of these users of the covert arts to kill their targets or anybody within their way at a range and way that can be re-used again and again without the target fighting back.

I'm not 100% about the insta-kill. I thought about using a skill instead but haven't figured out how to do that one exactly.

I would say remove the silencer, since that would require a longer barrel and thus make it harder to hide. A silencer makes the weapon a bit overpowered, since you can not only kill someone instantly, but there's a pretty good chance (as long as you're not seen) that you'll get away with it. As for the Special, I would go by GM's discretion. For example, a seasoned mercenary would be harder to catch off guard and kill (-20 to -30 maybe) while someone like.. A hive noble who's lived in the lap of luxury all his life would be much easier to take out. (-10, etc.)

Also, I'd probably make it rare. Pretty good though, I like it. Maybe you could do variants on it, like a wrist shotgun (weak, yes, but Scatter.)

Good idea about the insta-kill.

I was thinking of doing a bolt version but im not sure about the shotgun, it seems that people might blow their hand off if they use that one.

Kerrik said:

Actually, having the silencer on it doesn't really break realism. Most large suppressors you see hanging off of rifles/etc are there due to the cartridge size and the fact that they're removable. Integral silencers benefit from the fact that their length acts as an extended barrel (for the most part) making shorter actual barrel lengths much more feasible (ie. shorter barrel w/suppressor is more accurate vs same barrel w/o suppressor)

One thing that gets me about suppressors in DH, etc is the idea that you can suppress a revolver or a shotgun... you really can't, for the most part. If you pull up a pic of a revolver, there's a gap (actually called the cylinder gap) between the barrel and the rotary cylinder you put the cartridges in... when you fire the revolver, a non-trivial amount of the expanding gunpowder is spent through this gap. The only effective means to suppress a revolver is to make that gap as small as possible, but even then, due to back-pressure and the fact that the cylinder revolves, you run into issues with gas leakage if you don't seal it up, and reliability issues if you try to make the seal tighter. As for shotguns, I suppose an oversized suppressor might do, but only if you were using slugs, as buckshot doesn't create the seal necessary to contain the expanding gasses... and would probably eat your suppressor on the first trigger pull. Do a google search for 'suppressor baffle strikes' ... the results aren't pretty.

Oh, and as far as the insta-kill, to balance this out... I'd consider:

Range increment - 3 meters -- these weapons were never meant to be used more than nearly melee distance

If target is unaware, test BS at normal (-0) but on 3+ degrees of success you insta-kill (though I'd let DM discretion go for anything non-human, as some creatures like Eldar suffer the same physiological issues we do, but given this isn't a bolt-weapon, shooting an ork the same way would likely just piss it off.) That way you still receive the benefit of point-blank range in being able to hit your target, but still have to be non-suck at aiming the thing. I'd figure 1-2 degrees of success would receive an additional 1d5 pts of damage. Figure you might want to factor in if the target is wearing a helmet, etc as certain types of armor, like carapace cover pretty much everything, making this weapon just a single shot 'Hi, how's it going?' instead of a valid threat. Modify if necessary, but I think this is a good starting point.

Also, I wouldn't require an agi check, as going from non-hostile to combat stance is something every acolyte does all the time. If you wanted to make it harder/do a skill check, I'd up the required degrees of success for insta-kill.

this is why i was thinking of making it an actual talent top be able to use the gun to get a straight kill. something to represent the nature of the weapon and the fact that people would have to be familiar with it to use it inthis manner (not just point and shoot like most other weapons).

Oh, one thing that just came to mind, you might want to consider letting the weapon ignore toughness, as you're supposed to be aiming for a weak-point... but that would be very dependent on the creature, or bypass a certain amount of toughness. Either way, just an idea I got rereading the thread.

Tarquin Faquar said:

You could require an exotic weapon proficiency, but at the same time, it's pretty straight forward. I couldn't see trying to require something like medicae to use the insta-kill function. Pretty much anyone who can figure out how to use a pistol would understand this pretty innately. I'd figure it would be up to you as GM to remind your players as they're talking about doing it if the target's armor makes insta-kill impossible...

One other thing I was considering, instead of bonus damage, you could require a toughness check at some degree of difficulty modified by the BS DoS or get stunned for 1d5 rounds to simulate getting shot in the neck/back of the head is likely to put you down even if it doesn't kill you. This makes the weapon a lot more useful for sneaky stuff, and depending on the type of GM you are, would require the player to actually check and see if he killed the target or if they guy was merely stunned.

Also, as for seasoned vets being harder to surprise in the other guy's post, that should be accounted for the fact that if you're trying to sneak up on the guy, there should be an opposing roll of your concealment vs his awareness check... vets are very likely to have taken extra awareness points to prevent such a thing compared to n00bs (aka bullet-bait)

I personally would remove the whole "may be used as an instant kill" weapon; since that means it takes place exclusively outside of the rules and is incredibly powerful for it. (Surprise attacks gain a bonus to hit and they don't allow reactions, but unless the surprise attack itself was powerful enough to flat out kill the person it wont). Especially with high enough AGI - and if we are going to speak of nobles, generally in 40k that means they have their position through backstabbing, treachery, and more than likely multiple assassination attempts on their life. Few people get anywhere without being at least somewhat capable, never minding their security.

I'd say this kind of reminds me of the Venom compact pistol from IHB. If you want it to function exclusively as an assassination style weapon, I would say give it either 5m or point blank range required, -30 to search tests for it (I'd say when wearing appropriate clothing since its still something blatantly strapped to the arm, but that adds too many additional things). But, uh, to shoot user takes AGI test opposed by PER, if shooter wins target counts as Helpless and armor is ignored. If target wins the shot misses.

Helpless doubles damage of the shot, and by bypassing armor you actually have a decent chance of killing the target out right. Make it not reloadable outside of combat, Very Rare to Near Unique, and at least 1,000-2,000 thrones.

Only thing I'd be worried about is there are weapons specifically designed for assassination already (Mariette and Venom as mentioned), and with Hidden Compartments and Pop-Out weapons available as of IHB, you don't want it to be too amazingly good. If its a single shot auto kill chance that doesn't take the hands, there's no reason not to damned near always try to open with it, and than Quick Draw whatever weapons you have after that.

Remove autokill rule (not even Lascannon is autokill), instead give the weapon the Accurate and Special Quality.

Special: The weapon recieves extra damage as if it was a basic Accurate weapon but only at Point Blank range. At any other range it loses this quality and the chance to do extra damage.

Range changed to 5 (max would be 20 meter, bullet travels further but the chance to hit is next to nothing).

Damage changed to 1d10+1 (it is essentially an ultra-compact pistol and thus lower damage than an autopistol).

The surprise part is already factor in because it adds +30 bonus (for a total +60 or 6 DoS more than normal), and the target cannot dodge. 3d10+1 should be enough to one-shot goons and can even take down a real tough guy with a Fury.

Weight should be alot less.. maybe just 300-600 grams. James Bond's PPK pistol is about 600 in rl and thats a functional if compact pistol. 1 KG is not a light pistol in any way is close to what the Colt m1911 .45 pistol weighs. I realize this is DH and everything is oversized, but a pistol like that would have to be the exception.

How does that sound?

Interesting idea but I don't think the instant-kill rule is a good idea.

I think the biggest problem is how come I can instant kill with this pistol because it's on my arm but not a 'Venom' (a stealthly laspistol in the IHB which is also mounted on your arm), a needle-pistol I quickdraw from my pocket, a sniper rifle from 200m away or even a multi-melta?

Not only does it seem strange that this weapon is completely different to all others simply because it's mounted on your arm but it is also either extremely powerful or hard for the gm. Either it instant-kills everything and I can go around blowing away space-marines and daemons with one shot or the gm has to make on the spot decisions about who can be killed by it. This could be very difficult if your enemies straddle the line between mundane and monstrous, sure it can kill the normal ganger but what about the cyborg tec-heretic or the hulking mutant twist-brute dosed up on combat drugs.

I do think that their should be better rules for stealth kills in Dark Heresy but I don't think they should be restricted to a single weapon and I think they should involve stealth skill checks. I think the rules below do a pretty good job of enabling stealth kills, what do you all think? (Found these posted on the forums a while ago but I'm not sure whose they are. They also did some decent rules for sniping if anyone's interested)

"Sneak Attacks"
This is a bit trickier. Again, it's not suitable for combat - the hectic surroundings and generally on-edge enemies make it functionally impossible.
For this, you'll need... stealth skills (Shadowing, Move Silently and/or Concealment), preferably mastered to some degree and/or with equipment to make them easier still to use... and some way of attacking in melee.
To deal a single lethal blow, you need to catch your target completely unaware - if you're noticed, you'll have to duck from view and start again at best, and fight for your life at worst. You also need to be so close to him that you can smell his last breath as it escapes from his mouth or mangled throat.
To approach that close, you need to make appropriate Stealth tests. For the most part, Silent Move or Shadowing are most useful - Concealment is only really relevant if they're looking in your direction at the time, or if you need to duck out of sight quickly to avoid their gaze. The difficulty of this test/these tests vary based on the surroundings (it's harder to sneak on gravel than on soft carpet, harder to hide under bright lights than in the gloom, and easier to shadow someone in a dense crowd than in an open field), and the target's opposed Awareness test is modified by his general alertness (if he's tired, bored or generally indifferent to the proceedings, he'll suffer a penalty... if he's paranoid, wary or suspicious, he'll get a bonus).
Attempt a stealth test (opposed by the target's awareness) every round. If you succeed and your target fails, you get a number of metres closer to your target equal to your Agility Bonus (if both of you are moving, you close the gap between you and your target by that many metres; Unnatural Agility, as normal, does not influence movement distances). If you succeed and your target succeeds, or if you both fail, then you make no progress. If you fail and your target succeeds, you've been noticed.
If you've been noticed, you may immediately attempt a Concealment test in order to move out of sight before you're spotted properly, or a Decieve test in order to pass yourself off as someone that should be there. Obviously, being stood in a fortified complex, wearing only a black bodyglove and carrying an assortment of dulled mono-knives means that trying to bluff your way out of the situation is going to be very difficult, so modify the difficulty of any Decieve tests according to the circumstances.
If you manage to get within 1m of the target without him noticing you (congratulations if this is the case...), you may attack. Make an attack roll at +30 (the target is unaware), modified by other circumstances (such as placed shots, or ambient conditions like rain or snow). This will either be an attack with a weapon (either a melee weapon, or a pistol), in which case you roll for damage normally, ignoring their wounds score (the blow is an immediate critical hit) or a grapple, in which case the enemy suffers a -30 penalty on their Agility test to avoid it, you get a +20 bonus on your Strength tests to continue the grapple each round due to better positioning (this bonus is removed if the enemy wins a grapple test), and the unarmed damage you deal ignores their wounds score (dealing immediate critical hits).
Regardless of the outcome of the attack, your target is aware of you. Grappling prevents a target from crying out, at least until he succeeds on a grapple test against you, but other than that (and possibly the use of a Stummer), incapacitating or killing the target are the only options to avoid drawing attention to yourself. Another stealth test (Concealment or Move Silently only in this instance - Shadowing applies when attempting to follow someone, and that isn't what's being attempted here) is required to successfully leave the scene of the crime without being noticed. If there is obviously no-one around to observe you, you can spend time hiding the body and leaving/hiding at your own pace.
Again, this isn't an automatic win - approaching the target is difficult, and the weapons that're easiest to conceal for these purposes tend not to deal that much damage (knives, unarmed attacks) or are noisy (pistols). In the former case, talents like Crippling Strike (+1d5-1 extra critical damage with melee attacks), Precise Blow, Quick Draw (so you don't have to carry your weapon openly for too long), and Street Fighting (+2 critical damage with unarmed and knife attacks) are all useful, as are silencers for pistols, synskin, camelioline cloaks, stummers, shock weapons, toxic weapons, etc...

(Is there any way of putting text in a spoiler on this forum?)

Tarquin Faquar said:

Am I the only one who thinks this description sounds like a weapon upgraded with the Forearm Weapon Mounting ?

It can be found in The Inquisitors Handbook (page 178) and Rogue Trader core rulebook (Page 133).

weasel said:

Those are mine... it's nice to see them mentioned by someone other than me.

You could also salvage all your original ideas (compact, silent, near-instakill) by making the weapon a needler, but that would jack the price up, as well require the exotic weapons talent. Or a cheaper version could be a dart gun? You want the close range aspect, so either would work pretty well i think.

Determining what would be vulnerable to an insta-kill attack from this wouldn't be that difficult when you understand the actual mechanics behind how it does what it does.

There is only one way to reliably instantly kill something in a single shot, and that's a hit to the central nervous system. The central nervous system consists of the brain and upper spinal column, stopping somewhere around neck-level I forget which vertebrae exactly where, if hit above this point, the target drops, and below is paralyzed but can survive as the nerve endings essential for breathing are intact. Regardless, CNS hits can be difficult in real life, as targets taken from the front have a very small target area that varies even more with the size/speed of the bullet you're using. From the front, you have to punch through soft tissue if shooting for the throat, or varying amounts of bone if hitting the skull. Somewhat off-topic, if all you want to do is incapacitate your target, a shot with a fairly high-powered round to the sternum, if it strikes the spinal column on exit, will paralyze your target... though actual effects vary on where you sever the spine.

The item in question is a solid projectile weapon, likely not a large caliber as that would make concealment and sound suppression difficult, therefore one part of its effect is that the target is unarmored, as a smaller caliber bullet will not penetrate thick armor. Regular clothing, a hat, hair, even leather would likely not effectively stop the bullet.

Valid targets for the insta-kill effect for this weapon would have to have a similarly weak CNS and be similarly unarmored. Humans and eldar not wearing armor that would prevent a shot to the base of the skull would be valid targets. Keep in mind, presence of a helmet or armor in general would not necessarily prevent this weapon from use. Today's modern kevlar helmet and Interceptor body armor do not cover the neck itself, and in some cases the base of the skull, leaving a similarly armored person vulnerable to this style of attack; however, someone wearing full carapace or powered armor would not be vulnerable as the armor covers every inch of skin. Additionally, space marines would not be valid targets with or without helmet as their backpack would get in the way of the shot were one to be standing behind them.

Tyranids are extremely likely to not be valid targets due to natural chitin armor and a potentially diffuse nervous system.

Orks would not be valid either for similar reasons, their skin is rediculously tough.

Tau might be valid targets, but I don't know enough about them to say anything either way if you catch one out of their armor.

Demons themselves, not likely to be valid targets unless they're demonhosts, in which case you're attacking the host part and not the demon.

Overall, limited usefulness, but not terribly overpowering. I might revise these to add sniper rules to my game.

Bilateralrope said:

Those are explicitly stated to be very large and bulky gauntlets, so while its similar, I gave it a pass since it seems meant to be a subtle and near undetectable thing.

Rakiel said:

The IH ones, yes. However the RT ones can have a strong visual impression on their foes as fire seems to appear from the user's outstretched arms . That suggests that the RT forearm mounting does hide the weapon.

IH also has the Belasco Galvian Needler that can come with a special hidden rig that hides it up the sleeve and gives it the concealable attribute. That tells me that this is definitely a hidden gun.

For however you decide to stat your sleeve gun, consider this: For it to be hidden up someone's sleeve it would have a more restricted space it has to fit in than a gun carried openly. This means that the gun would have to be smaller, meaning it would have less ammo and/or damage than the gun being carried openly. But an instant-kill rule would be saying that the weapon somehow deals more damage.

So no one liked my suggestions? :/

Bilateralrope said:

Ah, we're bringing in RT gear. Never mind than. I am sticking to straight access for DH core book, since RT gear requires GM wrangling. I wasn't aware they had a needle sleeve gun, but if its already in the fluff might as well make use of something already in the fluff. Instant-kill rules I'm also completely against, for as stated by one of the earlier posters, not even Las-Cannons have that. You either can flat out kill someone or you don't.