I think 3000 xp for three talents, two free pieces of war gear, a bonus cohesion point, access to a good, flexible talent, and a solid list of skills and talents is not bad by any means.

Icon of Duty is a really neat talent. The fact you have to spend a fate point to use it is nothing for that kind of flexibility. A choice of +10 to ALL Wp test(Libby's new best friend), Fear for the squad, or a WS re-roll for everyone in support range who charges for the whole encounter. That is dripping with awesome sauce.

The class is great, but it will require a lot of work from the player and a campaign that will not require interacting with the enemies of mankind.

ak-73 said:

U are right, its simple, its not combat monster, not even above averange combatant, but as spiritual leader chaplain is ok.

boruta666 said:

Remember, it's not a speciality on its own - being a Chaplain isn't the only factor in determining the combat effectiveness of a character... a Chaplain/Assault Marine will be a far more proficient melee combatant than a Chaplain/Devastator Marine. The Chaplain upgrade adds a degree of leadership and social skills, plus some unique leadership abilities, to a character that may otherwise not have any.

I am sorry but I think way too many of yall look at these things from a power gamer perspective and not enough from a RPG perspective. To be a Chaplain is to be the moral and Religious compass of your group. That is totally awesome and provides so much more than just an extra bit of damage here or immunity to something. I like what I have seen so far and hope that all of the specializations provide as many role-playing opportunities as the Chaplain does.

As a side-note, while I do like for my character to be effective the whole maximizing down to the very last skill or talent just takes all the fun out of the role-playing to me.

Just my 2 cents.

Gvegas67 said:

Exactly. Well said.

3rded for Gvegas.

On an added note, taking bets on whether or not the Skull Helm will give the Chaplain Fear (1)?

As for the Dreadnought, I'm betting it's something for you to do ala the "heroic final death" out of the rulebook. In the rulebook, there's the, burn your last fate die, fight on for awhile longer and as long as your apothecary can salvage your gene-seed, make your next character better. Odds are pretty good it'll be similar, burned off your last fate die, you get a couple back and get to come back as a bad@#% dreadnought.

Gvegas67 said:

Thank you. I already have to deal with players who care only for the crunch, only to see it brought to an 11 on the forums. If I did not care about the fluff and personality behind what drives my character, I'd just play xbox.

I think though that we're GMs here who debating the combat effectiveness of a new Elite Advance. GMs, not players. And while I don't speak for anyone else, I have to say that I am doing so to be prepared. And Brother Boruta here has been in the past very helpful in highlighting potential for abuse.

Alex

Agreed.

I lean pretty heavily towards fluff before crunch, but unless I'm aware of the possibilites that certain pieces of weapons, wargear advances, etc can have on the game, ruleswise, I know my players will exploit that.

I'm lucky. Fone of my players are typical powergamer, but the deathwatch detting is pretty unforgiving and they will allways try to do anything that will increase their chances of victory, and to al esser degree, survival.

once again about chaplain...

i have shown "rites of battle" except with chaplain elite advancement to two of my players, from two different groups im leading. Two Different reactions.

Godric, Black Templar veteran (rank7) whose zeal in killing everything he judge to be heretical puts Khorne Berserkers frenzy to shame, looked at it and laughed at my face. He wasnt overjoyed at all, with his 1FP remaining, Icon of Duty talent will never see any use, all free starting talents from Fearsome Presence he already have from Black Templar advancement List. Only thing he very much liked was story about Deathwatch chaplains. In the end i allowed him to take Icon of Duty as elite advance (with house rule that it no longer need FP to activate), rosarius and corosius arcanum will be simply exchanged for his current SGW. On next Solo "session" he will have all rites needed to join deathwatch chaplains ranks.

Sama'el, one of unforgiven from Angels of Vengeance chapter, (rank5) veteran who is insane maniac of body/soul/mind/machine purity was second candidate for role of Deathwatch Chaplain. He was considered as candidate to be Chaplain "apprentice" by his chapter, mission to deathwatch is his final test. Reaction to ROB except written story was very positive, also mechanical side of carer wasnt to bad for him. At end he preferred to play zealous insane maniac who is treated by whole kill-team as demi chaplain than to become true deathwatch spiritual leader. Loyalty to parent chapter prevailed.

And for me Space Marine Chaplain in every fluff source is portrayed as Elite Warrior first, hate inspiring priest second, mind purity guardian third.

And to all who think im power gamer, im not "gamer" at all. For me Deatchwatch Chaplain lack "omph!" value from GM point of view.

Mechanically the Chaplain is more than underwhelming, but backgroundwise they are an extremely interesting kind of character to play, it would be difficult to convince most players to play one however, porvided other advanced options in the book are as lackluster mechanics wise. My biggest personal gripe with the chaplain however is the fact that assault marines probably qualify best for this role, with tacticals being a logical but far less effective second. A devastator chaplain is a very very bad joke.

boruta666 said:

Really? That's never the way I've seen them depicted. They're Elite Warriors because they're Space Marines, and because their role requires that they lead by example... It's to be expected, but it isn't central to who they are as Chaplains. Their role is first and foremost to be the spiritual leaders of their Chapter, to maintain and uphold the traditions and beliefs of their often-ancient brotherhood, and that's as clearly shown in the current Codex: Space Marines as it was in Codex: Ultramarines back in the mid-90s (the two relevant sources closest to hand at the time).

As far as I can see, the Deathwatch Chaplain rules represent quite appropriately what a Chaplain does in battle - guide his brothers in delivering the Emperor's Wrath, as demonstrated by the clear nudge towards using a Chaplain as Team Leader (cheapest access to Command up to +10, A unique Oath that basically prevents Cohesion Loss from fear, and a bonus point of Cohesion...). Bearing that in mind, it helps open up the leadership role to characters other than the obligatory Tactical Marine, allowing for different Squad Mode Abilities to be made available (four of them in the rulebook - Fire Support, Tank Buster, Dig In and Go to Ground - aren't available to Kill-Teams led by a Tactical Marine... and that list may expand with Rites of Battle)

Sure, it's not going to be a particularly attractive addition for a character in the last couple of ranks, but fortunately, that's not where it sits, and I can see a lot of use for it at the mid-game, and the base package seems to be a bargain: Fearless, Hatred and Litany of Hate total 2,300xp for a Black Templar... Fearless is 200xp more for anyone else, and only at Rank 7, and Litany of Hate isn't available anywhere else... and that's before you consider that it's giving you three pieces of wargear as well, which is equivalent at least to three Signature Wargear talents (500xp each)... for anyone but a Black Templar, it's a combo that can't otherwise be obtained, granting Fearless 3 ranks ahead of schedule, and it comes in a package that should (for a Templar) come to about 800xp more than the individual talents... before you consider the Chaplain's other abilities or the advance scheme it opens up.

Just as a side thing, most level replacements up to this point have never really given talents just for gaining the alternate rank, correct (from all my reading of DH at least), nor have they had xp costs. Perhaps it would be appropriate to decrease the xp cost of the alternate rank by the xp cost of any overlapping talents. This would make it far more attractive for advanced characters to purchase, and not make power gamers plan out their character to a point where they "refuse" to buy a skill because they know they will get it later.

Also, considering most specializations only have about 4-5 new options per rank, chaplain itself looks enjoyable at least.

Once again, my big fear is that everyone and their mother is going to try and fit/force as many alternate ranks as they can.

KommissarK said:

It's not an alternate rank, it's an elite advance package. I know the difference because my DH Scum/Reclaimator turned a Xanthite Sworn Radical recently. Paid 200xp for FL(Xanthites) + 1 contact (with disguise skill). Also unlocked for me a number of wonderful skills and talents such as Unshakable Faith and Resistance (Interrogation/Questioning)... I fear sooner or later I will need it.

Alex

Didn't notice that it was an elite advance package, whoops.

Therefore I'm not sure if it appropriate to refund that xp then. Still, I would say that makes it even more desirable to me, and makes me sad that nobody in my general area runs the 40k rpgs besides myself (and my players show no interest in running a game so I can play that black templar tac marine I always wanted to play).

KommissarK said:

Lol, I just signed up to a PBP with The Russian. Anyway, there is a new Player Finder thread here. I have to say though unless you find a group that starts middle-ranked, it's gonna be a while until chaplain. "Fight, you maggots. The Emperor wills it so."

Alex