If I'm reading the book right, it appears that the Survival skill is useless (or nearly so) to Space Marines. This seems odd to me, especially since many Space Wolves and Storm Wardens (among others) should have it. I also noticed that the CSMs from The Emperor Protects all have Survival, many at +10. Seems odd for them to focus on it if it's really that useless.

I'm considering just adding Survival to the list of starting Skills for all Astartes. It's not like they couldn't have had need for it and picked it up as Scouts. If it's almost useless, i just can't see charging 300 xp for it.

Why is it useless?

I'm guessing because of the combination of self-sustaining power armour, and the Astartes ability to safely digest pretty much anything.

Yes; it is a pretty useless skill, but one that pretty much any SM from a feral or death world would have learned.

Once you move outside the normal uses of the skill it becomes a lot better. The supplemental books for Dark Heresy certainly and possibly ItS for Rogue Trader too give you extra uses for skills one of which for survival is trap making. You end up gaining a lot more respect for the Survival skill when the mono wire snare pulls the head off one of the genestealers about to hit melee with you as happened in a recent session in the game I play.

Luddite said:

Read the Survival skill description in the Deathwatch book where it pretty much says that this is a skill for normal humans. Still, i can't see making it through Scout training (where the future SM is still mostly a normal human) without having picked up Survival.

Pre-initiate and during scout service would be the beginning of the skill.

However, sometimes a SM maybe cut-off or otherwise stranded. Power armour can be damaged, broken or simply depleted. Ammo and even chainsword psu's might run out. SM biology may do alot, but surviving on a Death World will still require skill. During a 300 year career of constant war, this isn't such an unlikely event.

I think that I'm going to remove Tracking from the list of Starting Skills and add Survival to that list in its place. This helps to explain why Tracking is a Rank 2 selection while Survival is a Rank 1 selection. It makes sense that all SMs had to learn to survive along with their lessons in surface navigation, but only some learn to track.

It also gives a slight edge to both Space Wolves and Storm Wardens since they can Tracking from their Chapter Advances earlier (and, in the case of Space Wolves, cheaper) than the General list.

Space marines should have tracking above survival, with tracking skill u do not play ranger or another hunterlike forest person but u can track almost like a dog thx to space marines mega turbo senses.

Also survival skill learned on Cathan should be totally useless on Fenris.

boruta666 said:

Your first point is arguable. Space Marines don't have Search as a default, yet it makes more direct use of senses than Tracking (and Intelligence-linked Skill). Also note that, aside from Space Wolves, most Marines don't have Heightened Senses (Smell).

Your second point makes sense outside of the game rules, but within the game rules, Survival is a "one selection covers all environments" blanket Skill.

HappyDaze said:

Simple: assign the proper test difficulty for very alien environments. And DW Marines who are trained in the skill, should test at much easier difficulties. But as I have said in the Mini-Dump thread - survival skill is useful for Marines if they have to sustain other people in a hostile environment. Which would make for an interesting set-up, btw.

Alex

HappyDaze said:

Also note that every space marine can track like a dog thanks to neuroglottis.

Or if they want to rise their survival rate on some deathworld or similiar they just could eat some local fauna brain or equivalent and learn something about local survival...

boruta666 said:

Just reread the Neuroglottis - you're quite correct in that it does give Tracking.

That means that Tracking really should be dropped from the Rank 2 General Space Marine list as well as the Space Wolves and Storm Wardens lists.

I'm still thinking that Survival should be a trained skill for all Space Marines, so I might just give it as a freebie. For that matter, I've decided to throw the Space Wolves a (fairly minor) bone and grant them Carouse as a trained skill for no cost.

There are two problems with the Neuroglottis providing the sole source of the Tracking skill...

1) Chapters that lack that organ

2) Tracking in situations not conducive to scent-tracking - like trace atmosphere planets and the like

darknite said:

Good points. Let me reconsider...

Step 1) Add Survival to the list of Starting Skills on page 36.

Step 2) Remove Tracking from the list of Starting Skills on page 36.

Step 3) Replace the text for the Neuroglottis with the following:

Neuroglottis: The Space Marine may detect any poisons or toxins by taste with a successful Challenging (+0) Awareness Test. He may also detect any poisons or toxins by smell with a successful Hard (-20) Awareness Test. The Space Marine treats Tracking as a Basic Skill, and may (at the GM's discretion) gain a +10 bonus to any Tracking Tests against an opponent he has tasted. However, it is important to note that none of these bonuses apply if the Space Marine is wearing a helmet for a sealed set of armour (e.g., Power Armour, Artificer Armour, or Terminator Armour).

I think that this accomplishes what I want without drastic alteration. It gives all Space Marines the training to Survive in hostile environments. Space Marines will still have a reason to purchase Tracking (from Rank 2 General Space Marine), and both Space Wolves and Storm Wardens will still have an advantage in purchasing Tracking from their Chapter Advances.

That's a good compromise.

survival is 300xp advancement from general list rank 1.

great place for it. And not every marine comes from deathworld/feral world. U like it? u take it from free xp at start.

What's in the book are merely guidelines and can easily be changed if desired. I'm just trying to change them to better reflect what I see of the SMs.

HappyDaze said:

I very much understand what u mean, we have so many house rules that its hard to name "deathwatch by FFG" when we play it. (for start no tactical/assault/devastator but one Veteran advancement list. Pilot(personal), Pilot(hover/skimmer), Swim, Tech-use, as starting skills and so much more changes that its pointless to name them.) Still i would leave Survival as extremely cheap starting advancement.

boruta666 said:

Yeah, I can see most of that. For me Drive (Skimmer/Hover), Pilot (Personal), and Survival are the skills I feel should be added to the starting skills list for all Marines. I would hold back on Swim and Tech-Use myself, so obviously YMMV.

BTW, I don't feel any need to compensate Assault Marines for their "effective loss" if everyone get Pilot (Personal) - they still get Swift Attack and a Jump Pack in their starting gear which is quite a boon.

i can understand survival as a starting skill but pilot (personal) isnt that just jump packs so only assault marines should have it, also i cant see every marine knowing how to drive a landspeeder ,

Hardrainfalling said:

Every Tactical Marine will have served as an Assault Marine and a Devastator earlier in his career, in a Codex Chapter, and thus should be proficient in every standard role required in an Astartes Chapter, from operating heavy weapons, to piloting Land Speeders, driving bikes and tanks, operating Jump Packs, fighting in melee... everything. A Tactical Marine in a Codex Chapter is trained to handle anything and everything a campaign can throw at him.

Now, there's a difference between being proficient and being skilled - most vehicle operations are dealt with by Marines who have chosen to specialise in that duty - but those things are a basic part of a Marine's skill set. Knowing how to operate a jump pack or fly a Land Speeder or drive a Rhino or ride an Attack Bike... a fully-trained Marine should know how to do those things.

Now, Deathwatch works under the assumption that the majority of Tactical, Assault and Devastator characters are experienced warriors who have already served in the various roles their Chapter asks of them (a Space Wolves Assault Marine isn't necessarily a Blood Claw, as those are also the Chapter's newest recruits, but rather any Space Wolf who has chosen to focus his efforts on melee - he's as likely to be a Grey Hunter or even one of his company's Wolf Guard as a young Blood Claw), and then chosen to focus on the role that suited their talents better. This means that they've already picked up these basic skills at some point before they were selected to serve in the Deathwatch