"Place this card next to your plot deck until the end of this epic phase."

First, is it in play (while next to plot deck) or is it just a reminder? What if I play second copy of Battle of Ruby Ford?

Pyre of the False Gods: "After you play an event card from your hand, put it on the bottom of your deck instead of discarding it". Does this effect change anything if it was epic event?

Rogue30 said:

I doubt anyone ever gave it much thought, but let's see what we've got....

• We know that when events are played, they enter a "moribund:discard" state. That's in the FAQ.
• Since there is no instruction to the contrary on the card, there is no reason to think this does not happen to an Epic Battle card when it is played.
• The "put by plot deck" instruction does not seem to change the moribund state to "moribund:next to plot card" since it does not use the word "instead," nor does it give any instructions to move it to the discard pile after the Epic phase (an instruction that would be necessary to move a card from one out-of-play area to another).
• Therefore, the "put by plot deck" instruction seems to extend the event's "moribund:discard" state from "until the close of the window" to "until the end of the Epic Phase" - with further clarification in the FAQ of "until the end of the Epic Phase created by this card."
• Therefore, it would see that the Epic Battle event is in an extended moribund state - making it behave like any other moribund card (in play, but cannot be removed from play a second time).

So, if all that is true, a second copy of Battle of the Ruby Ford would dupe the first (since the moribund first copy is in play).

Rogue30 said:

Following what was said above, it wouldn't change anything practical about the Epic Battle event card. When it is played, it would go into a "moribund:bottom of deck" state instead of a "moribund:discard" state. It's own "put by plot deck" extension would kick in, then at the end of the Epic Phase, it's moribund state would "resolve," sending it to the bottom of your deck.

That's my interpretation of the text and the rules, anyway. Seems to work.

By the way, Battle of Ruby Ford is Deathbound, which I take to mean it'll go to the dead pile and won't be affected by Pyre, correct?

Boerta said:

No, it would still be affected by the Pyre. Nothing about Deathbound blocks, prevents or preempts the Pyre.

What you would have would be two separate replacement effects (Deathbound and the Pyre) trying to act on the card at the same time (after the vent card is played from hand). So the First Player would decide the order of these conflicting effects - essentially choosing whether Ruby Ford ends up in the "moribund:dead" or "moribund:deck(bottom)" state. It's pretty much the same as when a "discard at 0" and a "kill at 0" effect are both active when a character's STR reaches 0; the First Player decides.

ktom said:

Yeah, thanks.

ktom said:

Ah, neat. That raises another question. Is there a general timing rule stating which order players have to respond to something? For instance, who has to kill off characters after a wildfire assault first? Or if 2 players want to see what the other one is picking up from a summoning season, who goes first?

Boerta said:

The order that players "Respond" to something (meaning the order in which they can play "Response" effects) depends on the type of action they are dealing with. For a player action (one that starts because a player does something - usually trigger a "Marshaling," "Challenges," "Any Phase" or whatever effect), the player to the left of the one who's action it is gets to play the first Response (to anything that has happened in the window so far), then clockwise from there. For a framework action (one that starts because it's the time in the game for that to happen - like revealing plots or resolving a challenge), the First Player gets to play the first Response (to anything that has happened in the window so far), then clockwise from there.

When choosing which characters to target for effects in which multiple players choose targets (like Wildfire or Game of Cyvasse), the person who controls the effect that is initiating chooses first, then clockwise from there. So whoever revealed Wildfire has to choose their 3 characters, then the next guy (to the left) and so on. After all players have chosen their 3, all the other (non-chosen) characters die at the same time . So keep in mind that even though you take turns choosing the targets during the initiation of the effect, the resolution happens to all characters at the same time during resolution. So it isn't quite correct to say "I kill my characters, they you kill yours." It's more precise to say "I choose my characters, then you choose yours, then everyone dies together."

If they are moribund, they are in play, which means Bear Island cannot be used. And Nate has said it doesn't stop Bear Island (see here http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=18&efcid=4&efidt=510726 ).

Khudzlin said:

Wouldnt that be because you dont control the Event, therefore it doesnt interact with Bear Island? Although the word "control" isnt technically defined in the FAQ or Core rules (at least I don't see it, maybe I missed it) so rules on that could be tricky I suppose, but is there a precedent that would indicate an Eent in a Moribund state is controlled by the person who played it?

Skowza said:

The ruling from Nate simply says that at the end of the action window in which the Epic Battle card is played, the moribund card leaves play. It goes to a "special" out-of-play area, apparently called "by your plot deck," until the end of the Epic phase it creates, when it is moved to another out-of-play area (your discard pile).

Nothing surprising here. Just confirmation that the Epic Battle even card does not persist in a prolonged "moribund" state. Since they are not in "moribund" between the Plot phase and the Epic phase, everything else falls logically into place.

So, since Battle of Ruby Ford does go to your dead pile right away, you can play 3 copies of it in a single plot phase?

Why would you do that if the other ones you play are only duplicates. ARe there any effects that can remove an epic event after its placed next to plot card that i should be worried about. If not, then playing duplicates for your epic card is a waste of the other ones. Pretty redundant.

Nate French has ruled that they are not in play. So no duplicating.

Under these current rulings, yes, you can play multiple copies of the unique, Deathbound event in the same plot phase because:

• The played card is not "in play," so a second copy will not dupe the first
• The played card is neither "in play" nor in your dead pile, so there is nothing from the rules for unique cards that prevents you fro playing the second copy.

So the rulings combine to create what looks like a loophole.

ktom said:

How would they stack? Multiple Epic phases or multiple challenges in the Epic phase? I assume multiple Epic phases based on the wording.

(3.34) Multiple Epic Phases

If multiple epic phases are created in a single round, they are played in the order in which they were created, after the dominance phase and before the standing phase.

ktom said:

Hah. I hate the FAQ being so long. I never have a desire to look through it. I should print out a copy. For some reason I find print copies of rules much better than digital copies.

ktom said:

I am confused about this ruling. The Pyre states specifically, "instead of being discarded". A Deathbound event is never going to be discarded, so how can a player choose to replace Moribund:Discard with Moribund: Deck(bottom)? If Moribund: Discard is a valid option (which I think it would have to be to allow you to replace it with Moribund: Deck(bottom)), then why could I not just chose to put it in the discard pile over the dead pile any given time I played the event?

You are misunderstanding Deathbound. Deathbound is a replacement effect that says when you play the card, it goes into the moribund:dead pile state instead of the moribund:discard pile state. The ability has to be active to make that happen. That's why canceling a Deathbound event sends it to the moribund:discard pile state.

So, Deathbound says to put the card into to moribund:dead pile state instead of the moribund:discard pile state when you play the event. Well, the Pyre says to put it into the moribund:bottom of deck state instead of the moribund:discard pile state when you play the event. So which is it? When you play the event, you have one effect saying dead pile and another saying bottom of the deck at the same time. Whenever you have two effects trying to do mutually exclusive things at the same time, the First Player decides which works.

Anyway, the thing you seem to be missing is that Deathbound is a card effect that kicks in when the event is played - just like the Pyre.

ktom said:

So, if my opponent plays the it with the Pyre out and I am the First Player, can I choose to have the event go to their dead pile instead?

tjstyles said:

Nevermind, I missed that you answered this earlier in the thread. Actually, I completely misread that part, which would have answered my other question too. I thought you said "what you would need to have". That whole post makes a whole lot more sense now that I read it again, cause I couldn't figure out how your "new example" was in any way related to the question he was posing. I even read it 3 or 4 times trying to figure out why you were making that example. Yay for reading comprehension.