Howdy WFRPers,

I need help building my first character - a High Elf Swordmaster - and I've come to ask the experts for advice. Specifically, I'm debating which combination of specializations (2), talents (2), and action cards (4) to take. For those uninterested in the background stuff, skip on down to the bottom to see my character's stats and what I've already chosen, as well as what I'm considering.

THE BACKGROUND
My wife and I have been invited to join a new WFRP 3e group. There will be 5 players, most of whom are new to Warhammer and roleplaying in general. For her character, my wife is playing a High Elf Dilettante. I wanted to play her "side-kick", so I've selected the High Elf Swordmaster to serve as her bodyguard while she explores the Old World. I don't know what the other players will be taking for their careers, but I thought the social + combat combo of a Dilettante and Swordmaster might prove effective, even if elves are somewhat distrusted in the Empire.

We will be starting out with the published adventures. I'm not sure if this means Eye for an Eye, the Gathering Storm or the Edge of Night.

Now, to be quite honest I'm a closet optimizer, and I have fun building synergy between my stats, talents and action cards. I also like the mechanics of my character sheet to reflect my character's concept and in-game roleplaying. My basic design philosophy is that my character doesn't have to be the most powerful example of its kind, but everything (dice-wise) should make sense and be useful.

THE CHARACTER
Race: High Elf
Career: Swordmaster

St 4
To 3
Ag 4
Int 3
WP 3
Fel 2

Basic Skills: Coordination, Weapon Skill, Discipline, Intuition, Observation
Advanced Skills: Education (acquired)

Wealth: Affluent (purchased Ulthuan Scale)

Weapons/Armor: Greatsword of Hoeth, Ulthuan Scale

OPTION 1 "THE BODYGUARD"
Specializations (2): Parry with Greatsword (Weapon Skill), Protection (Discipline)

Talents (2 of the following): Determined (Focus) or I've Seen Worse (Focus) / Flanking Manoeuvre (Tactic) or Roll With It (Tactic)

Action Cards: Improved Guarded Position, Improved Parry, My Life for Yours, Riposte

Thoughts: This is a highly defensive build, with my "protection" specialization kicking in whenever I use my main Support action cards. In an attack, I'd start out with Improved Guarded Position, then Parry + Riposte (if possible), and finally My Life for Yours in hopes that it will fully recharge Parry.

Determined and I've Seen Worse both assist with my defensive actions, though I'm not sure which is better for my character's build. Flanking Manoeuvre would be nice as my ward (High Elf Dilettante) will be in combat with me most of the time, and Roll With It would be good to keep me alive longer as To 3 makes me somewhat fragile. Suggestions?

OPTION 2 "THE SWORDMASTER"
Specializations (2): Greatsword (Weapon Skill), Parry with Greatsword (Weapon Skill)

Talents (2 of the following): Contemplative (Focus) or Foresight (Focus) / Exceptional Training (Tactic) or Exploit a Weakness (Tactic)

Action Cards: Final Stroke of the Master, Path of Falling Water, Path of the Summer Gale, Riposte

Thoughts: This is a straight-up high damage, high critical build - or at least as high as I could think to design it. The specializations are obvious, as are the combos between the action cards.

In an attack, I'd begin combat with Path of the Falling Water, then Path of the Summer Gale, and finally wrap things up with Final Stroke of the Master, throwing in Riposte where possible. For Talents, I like the synergy between Contemplative and Path of the Summer Gale, but perhaps getting the initiative is more important? In that case, I could go with Foresight + Lead From the Front.

Exceptional Training would help with the negative modifiers to both of my "Path" actions, while Exploit a Weakness would combine nicely with the Greatsword of Hoeth's special ability. However, I'm not sure how easy it is to get a critical hit in this game, so maybe that talent is too situational?

There you have it. All analysis and criticisms are appreciated.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Yipe said:

I hate life.

I had a very long post here but accidentally pressed backwards, killing it all.

Here is some of what I had to say - Improved guarded position is good, but someone else should be doing it. Your ward should probably not be in combat with you to begin with, so flanking maneuver is not a good talent to have. I think the focus talents overall are better than the tactics, so you could get a passive use talent, put it on the party sheet, and use the active for yourself. Finally, path of the falling water is a good defensive card, one I would keep with any build, along with improved parry and riposte. Keep stuff like final stroke of the master for later.

Smilodoner,

Thanks for the tips, and for retyping a synopsis of your original post. I've cursed out that back-button myself.

Based on your suggestions, here are some changes I've made to my character:

SPECIALIZATIONS: Greatsword (Weapon Skill), Parry with Greatsword (Weapon Skill)

TALENTS: Foresight (Focus), Quick Wits (Focus)

ACTION CARDS: Improved Parry, My Life for Yours, Path of the Falling Water, Riposte

With these specializations, I'll roll a bonus fortune die on 3 out of 4 action cards. Combined with the Greatsword of Hoeth, I'll add 2 free fortune dice on every attack.

I've gone from 1 Focus and 1 Tactic talent to a pair of Focus-based talents. Foresight helps with initiative and as it doesn't exhaust, I'll socket it to the party sheet so everyone can benefit from its effects. I'll save Quick Wits for myself to help recharge Riposte faster, as without Final Stroke of the Master, Reckless Cleave or another hard-hitting melee action card, that will be my main method of dealing extra damage.

In an attack, I'll start off with Path of the Falling Water to engage my target. I'll follow this up with Improved Parry + Dodge and pray for a miss so I can activate Riposte then exhaust Quick Wits to bring it back faster. Finally, if my ward gets dragged into the engagement, I'll use My Life for Yours and hope to gain enough boons to immediately refresh Improved Parry. This doesn't take advantage of Path of the Falling Water's free refresh option, but oh well.

On the downside, I wonder if this build is a bit weak on offense? The Sword Master isn't very tough, so I'm not sure how long I can go toe-to-toe with a big bad. This career seems best suited to dealing 1 big hit with criticals to spare, and that's not my character. I also noticed that only 1 of my action cards has a Sigmar's Comet symbol on it, which means few super-nifty results. I'll guess I'll be converting any comets to successes or boons.

I was tempted by both Reckless Cleave and Thunderous Blow to up my damage capacity. Unfortunately, both seem superior in the reckless stance, and I just can't picture my character fighting in that style (nor does the reckless stance match up well with the Sword Master's career and Way of the Sword action cards). I wish there were more 2-handed melee action cards...

I think I'd split the difference and take the best defensive and the best offensive options and drop the mid-line options, for a more all around balanced approach.

Yipe,

I'm not sure if you want my input or not. Feel free to ignore this if you don't ...

1) Specializtion of Parry w/Greatsword. Unless this is a change in the PG, technically this specialization will NOT help when using the Parry action card. Specializations only add fortune dice to a check. Active Defense action cards add misfortune dice to an enemy's pool. Those are two completely different things. Now, I'm not set on being a stickler about it, so if it means a lot to you, you could try asking nicely and I might house rule and let it go ahead and add misfortune dice when you use parry.

2) I like Foresight, and think it will make a great addition to the Party sheet especially. *however* keep in mind that the group will need to a party sheet that has a Focus slot, and that no one else has a Focus talent to add to the sheet. Otherwise, you will be stuck with 2 Focus talents and only 1 slot. You might want to consider the Untouchable talent (Tactic) instead of Quick Wits. That allows you (at a cost of 1 fatigue) to PARRY ranged attacks, which fits in with your character concept (and focus on Parry). It is also a Tactic talent, so you could conceivably use both talents you purchased.

3) Action cards:You've only got 1 Way of the Sword action card, so the bonus ability of the Path of Falling Water action card is wasted. I would suggest Path of the Autumn Wind instead. That will allow you to remove recharge tokens from Parry, allowing you to parry more often. Once you get an advance or two, and buy another Way of the Sword action (or two), then I would buy Path of Falling Water. If you don't like Path of Autumn, then I'd suggest Path of Hawk as that does more damage plus can remove recharge tokens from itself. It also recharges fairly quickly in as it is (barring banes/stars), so it can be used more often

The movement bonus of the Path of Falling water will be questionable in usefulness unless the group gets at least another front-line fighter, and even then you might get stuck. Keep in mind, this card doesn't let you initially disengage ... so if you are already engaged with an enemy you won't be able to disengage to attack a different enemy at close range, for example. The movement only works if you're currently unengaged and at close range. To remain unengaged, you'll pretty much need one or two other players to draw the enemy's attention. I'm not saying it won't ever be useful, but it might not be worth making this action your first-choice attack action card.

dvang said:

The PG clarifies that what you've written is accurate. It mentions that it would add a fortune to any check to use the skill directly. With Dodge as an example, it would add a fortune die to attempts to avoid a sprung trap or a falling stone, but not when using the Dodge action card, since it doesn't reference Coordination as the relevant skill.

dvang said:

Dvang,

Your in-put is absolutely appreciated and won't be ignored. Thanks for taking the time to offer up some suggestions on my character build. I know that you prefer to be hands-off, but I definitely need the help.

I haven't read the PG from cover to cover yet, and there are many areas where I'm not fully versed in the rules. The above example is one of them. I went back to the skills section and reviewed the "Dodge" example and now understand how the Parry action card doesn't require a skill check, thus making my Parry with Greatsword specialization less useful than I had initially imagined. I'm going to switch to a different specialization.

With regards to house rules, the Parry with Greatsword specialization and so forth, here's my answer:

1. The specialization doesn't mean a lot to me. So I would rather play the rules as written than make an exception.

2. I'm generally not a big fan of house rules (though to be honest, I probably couldn't tell if something was "house" or "official" at this point).

When I said I was a closet optimizer, it's probably more accurate to describe me as a "concept optimizer". I like puzzling out the mechanics and finding interesting combos that work within the theme I've designed for my character - it's not a way to build a super-PC. Therefore, I'm not looking to bend the rules to make my character better than he should be. I have no problem failing at whatever task - as long as I do it with style .

Now back to work on my build.

No worries. The specialization was a question that had come up before on the forums here. Specializations themselves can be a bit tricky, since they are pretty loose categories. In that regard, I could certainly see someone being specialized in parrying with a particular weapon, as in being well trained to parry an enemy's attacks. So, despite it not being technically in the rules, I wouldn't be adverse to making a house rule if someone desired that sort of specialization (in a case by case basis). I agree, though, to keeping house rules to a minimum if possible, and I try to adhere to the written rules as much as I can.

Specializations options are pretty wide open, however. So feel free to throw some "non-standard" stuff my way to see what makes sense and sounds cool to you. Some "non-standard" examples that I might consider allowing: Specialized in Riposte w/Greatsword (which would give you 1 fortune die in the riposte attack), specialized vs Greenskins w/Greatsword (1 fortune die vs Greenskins), etc.

Those are great ideas for specializations. I especially like the Riposte with Greatsword suggestion, but sadly I couldn't squeeze Riposte into my final build. I am planning to buy it with my first advance - assuming my character lives through our initial session, that is.

If you'll allow it, I'm going with a non-standard specialization for Discipline - Protection. This should help offset my somewhat lackluster Willpower stat, and the hefty 3 misfortune dice penalty on My Life for Yours. I imagine that's in addition to any easy/average skill check dice? Ouch. It should also help me if I decide to pick up Improved Guarded Position down the road, though that would be a ways off.

Serving as a guardian is my character's core concept (though I have another plot hook for you to take advantage of, if you wish), and while taking the My Life for Yours action card hampers my overall effectiveness, I think it's too central to being a bodyguard to give up. Oh well, I guess that's what advancement points are for!

EDIT: A point I should clarify - I'm not a big fan of house rules made by players to benefit their own PCs, or house rules that make PCs stronger, but I have no problems with GM hand-wavery, if that's what it's called. I know that was my bread-and-butter when I was a GM.

My question is what do you envision the scope of "Protection" specialization to be? What sort of actions do you think it will apply/give the fortune die to? (I assume My Life For Yours is among them, since you mentioned it). I'm sure it can be worked out.

Yes, any difficulty on a card is in addition to whatever difficulty the action is (whether standard or opposed, etc). I don't have the "My Life For Yours" action card in front of me, and only vaguely recall how it works. (something about sharing some of the damage IIRC). I don't know what the check is, but in general, if it isn't an attack (vs Defense) and it isn't an opposed check, the default difficulty is 0d (Simple).

I assume Dvang is the GM? Is the extra successes turning into wounds optional rule being used? We use it, and can amplify damage nicely. Of course, it also gets used against the players. So it could be terrible when fighting something with massive stats.

My input was in line with your concept optimizer. I do the same thing. As a swordmaster, he probably knows all of these attacks - in training. Actually using them is a different matter, so it could be interesting thematically to see him progress and unlock these abilities he has inside of him. It would also explain why he is relatively weak in the high damage area.

I do not believe he will be all that vulnerable. Not with improved dodge and riposte, and if he gets hit the armor isn't awful. He will not be Ironbreaker tough, but that's ok.

I am curious, assuming he makes it to the second career, what do you plan on advancing into?

dvang said:

First off, as the GM you have the final say. Whatever you decide is perfectly fine with me.

On my end, I imagined this "Protection" specialization would only be activated under certain circumstances. Specifically, that would be any time a "guard" action card is used. I believe this means 3 action cards are applicable (Guarded Position, Improved Guarded Position and My Life for Yours). There may be others, but not that I've found so far.

My intent was not to make a broad "any time I'm standing guard" type of specialization. It would apply only in combat (or pre-combat) where my character is actively blocking/defending attacks directed at other members of the group. Basically, if he's placing himself in harm's way to save or assist someone else, and uses 1 of those 3 cards, he gets the fortune die. Does that sound okay?

The name "Protection" is a work in progress. I've been kicking around different words that describe what I'm aiming for - something along the lines of Sentinel, Guardian, Defender, Safeguard, Self-Sacrifice, etc... I'm open to suggestions.

What about vigilance? You could say the vigilance applies to you watching your ward, and it could work in other areas, too. Like standing guard. It might end up being too good, so it would need to be defined narrowly.

Smilodoner said:

Very nice. Plus, it fits the overall intent of the Discipline skill nicely (which I was having trouble with).

Vigilance it is. Thanks for helping build my character!

Smilodoner said:

Several good questions and comments. I'll tackle these one at a time:

1. Dvang is our GM. I feel pretty lucky to be part of his new group as he's not only a great storyteller but a good ambassador to roleplaying, and that's important as I've invited several people to join us who have very little RP experience (my wife included). Having dvang as their first GM should prove to be a great introduction to the hobby.

2. I don't believe the optional extra successes to wounds rule is being used, but that's ultimately up to the GM. I've participated in 3 of dvang's demos, and he didn't use that rule to the best of my knowledge.

3. Your explanation of unlocking abilities/progressing as a Sword Master fits nicely with my concept of a younger elf bodyguard (background-wise this is only his second assignment, the first ended... badly). In that vein, I'm going to hold off on Final Stroke of the Master and Path of Falling Water for now, but I may take Path of the Hawk and Path of the Summer Gale at the expense of Riposte. Decisions, decisions. Whichever action card I don't take, I'll be buying it as my first advancement.

4. To help him suck up the damage, I'm looking at Roll With It from the tactics talents. I know that my offensive capabilities will increase quickly as I pick up more action cards, but other than investing 4 advancement points into my Toughness (which I don't really want to do quite yet), I can't see many ways of improving my soak.

5. I've been wondering what second career would fit with my concept, and I'm still undecided. My wife wants us to play the "Lewis and Clark" of the High Elves, exploring the Old World for lost elven artifacts, so Navigator or Investigator might work. He also has an enemy he's pursuing, so any of the more combat-oriented careers are good options, such as Soldier, Mercenary, Scout and Bounty Hunter.

Any suggestions in the 2nd career department?

Yep, I shall be the almighty GM, spewing fire and brimstone and death upon the hapless players.... err, no wait, forget I said that

I hadn't really thought much about using too many optional rules. I think, with many new RPGers, that the optional success might increase the lethality too much. Besides, I like rewarding balanced rolls, so it's not just about how many hammers you can get.

Alright, Vigilance sounds like it could be workable. Something along the lines of:
While engaged with an ally, and you or that ally is threatened, all Discipline checks gain 1 fortune.
Action cards that I see affected - My life for yours, Guarded position, imp guarded position, Staring contest, combat focus (although that aids ranged attacks), Beserker rage, and the 3x Saga support cards. I can see staring contest (a sort of intimidation) and berseker rage being appropriate, and the Sagas don't look to be too hard to fit in either. It's a small list of actions, and other Discipline checks (except the important Fear tests!) will probably be fairly rare. So, it will mainly apply to those actions and Fear tests. How does that sound?

Already looking ahead to a second career, eh? Are you sure you'll live that long?

By the way, one house rule I do allow is for a PC to take the same career a second time if they choose. I know its unlikely, but it is possible.

Now... some suggestions just looking at "legal" High Elf careers -
Messenger - Certainly as a bodyguard you could transition into a more trusted special messenger for the nobility.
Physician - Being able to Physik your ward or yourself when injured could be useful
Navigator - Guide your ward through the wilderness
Chamberlain - A natural career choice for a trusted servant to aspire to
Investigator - On one hand it might be a bit too mental considering your previous career ... however it does also provide benefits to your observation and stealthier skills
Mercenary / Soldier / Bounty Hunter - These three are the easiest to transfer into, and continue with your martial prowess (whereas the previous ones don't really). Soldier is probably the best fit as far as fluff (IMO), although both of the others will work and have their own advantages. Bounty Hunter is really more Ranged oriented (hence Ballistic Skill as career skill). At least Soldier has Weapon skill as well. Mercenary keeps the same kind of talent slots, which can be useful depending on how your talents (and the group's party slots) work out.

If you are looking at a non-combat career, Investigator or Navigator are probably best, as they can train Observation which fits in with your "vigilant" persona. Navigator might be slightly better as it also allows Ride, Athletics, Resilience, etc which all are physical skills befitting a guardian.

Fantastic stuff dvang! I like your definition of Vigilance. If it's acceptable to you, it sounds good to me. Note, from my own playing style I won't be taking any action cards with traits on them unless they are Way of the Sword cards, so the Saga cards are out for me.

I must say, I was a little hesitant to post a "character build" question on this forum as A) I prefer to lurk on message boards rather than get involved directly and B) I didn't see many "how do I build X character?" threads. I'm sure glad I did though, because you guys have been a big help.

Thanks for giving me the heads-up on your re-do a career house rule. I was going to ask if that was a possibility. I also like your career suggestions. I think Soldier, Navigator and Investigator are on the top of my list. I can see going from a bodyguard to a "private detective" of sorts, but also staying on the martial path.

As for living long enough to hit a second career, well... I wouldn't be surprised if my Sword Master went down in a blaze of bodyguarding glory before the first adventure is over. Not to worry! If that happens I have a back-up character all ready to go - Werzel Schwartz.

I like to think of Werzel as an Underhanded Accountant (i.e. Agent career). He works as a freelance scribe who embezzles money from his employers by "cooking the books". Then he reports them to his tax collecting brother and their mom, who runs their little gang of thieves with an iron fis - err - wooden spoon. His brother shakes them down for hush money and gives Werzel a cut.

But as these things usually go, Werzel thought his cut wasn't big enough. He got greedy and is now on the lam after stealing a bit too much from some very powerful people. He's blown through the majority of his "earnings", lost his wench, "convertible" Bretonnian sports carriage and, saddest of all, his lucky donkey. To earn some quick Karls, he's looking to join a group of less-than-scrupulous adventurers and hopes they'll lead him to his next mark (it seems desperate nobles are always in need of adventurers these days).

Now, to get this thread back on track, I'll be posting my Final Answer(?) Sword Master build shortly.

Alright, after much hand-wringing and crying into my pillow, here's what I've got:

SPECIALIZATIONS: Greatsword (WS), Vigilance (Dis)

TALENTS: Quick Wits (Focus), Roll With It (Tactic)

ACTION CARDS: Improved Parry, My Life for Yours, Path of the Hawk, Path of the Summer Gale

And here's why I took what I did:

KillerShrike's recommendation (great books by the way) made me think about creating a balanced build, with abilities that allowed me to roleplay my bodyguard concept (Vigilance spec, Roll With It, Improved Parry and My Life for Yours) while still dealing out some Sword Masterin' damage (Greatsword spec, Quick Wits, Path of the Hawk and Summer Gale).

Of course, there are never enough creation points to get everything you want so I had to make some sacrifices. The hardest was letting go of Riposte, but it was either that or My Life for Yours because I found taking only 1 Way of the Sword card really hampered my offensive capabilities. In the end, My Life for Yours won out as a core element to my character's background. You can be sure I'll be buying Riposte with my first advancement (if I live through dvang's first session that is, doh).

TALENTS

For talents, I stuck to 1 Focus and 1 Tactic because I'm not sure what the group is going to choose for their party sheet, and I can always let someone else socket their talent if need be. If, during our chargen night, my choices aren't synergizing with everyone else then I'll swap them out for something more compatible.

I took Quick Wits to help recharge Path of the Hawk faster as it will be my main damage dealer. I passed on Contemplative because I'll need to spend my fortune points elsewhere, I've Seen Worse because my Sword Master is relatively new and inexperienced, and Foresight because I don't own the card. It may be a little neurotic, but I like to use my own components if at all possible (otherwise I would have taken it as Foresight doesn't exhaust).

Roll With It was a hard choice as Exceptional Training, Exploit a Weakness, Flanking Manoeuvre, Untouchable and Vigilance were all excellent options that resonated with the bodyguard concept or Sword Master career. I settled on Roll With It because, other than paying 4 advancements to increase my Toughness, there isn't much I can do to up my soak, and I'll need to stay alive to keep my ward safe. Also, I imagine it as a very elven thing to do in combat.

I realize having 2 talents that exhaust might not be smart, but I'll have to deal with it. I expect to buy Foresight early on, perhaps with my second advancement point. Question: can Quick Wits take recharge tokens off of talent cards as well as action cards (e.g. Roll With It), or only action cards?

ACTION CARDS

Here's where Smilodoner and dvang really helped, and this was by far the hardest part of building my character. Smilodoner's advice was especially helpful in optimizing my concept of a beginning bodyguard (i.e. progress into the Way of the Sword cards like Final Stroke of the Master rather than having them at the start).

Now that I've read the action and manoeuvre rules, I have a better grasp on how to approach combat. Not a great handle, but better. In an attack, I would drop into the conservative stance, engage with Path of the Summer Gale, then use Dodge + Improved Parry to hopefully avoid the incoming attack, go deeper into conservative as I hit back with Path of the Hawk, exhaust Quick Wits to refresh Path of the Hawk, then tap Roll With It (for a total of 5 armor soak) while Improved Parry is recharging.

If my ward is in trouble, I'll activate My Life for Yours and pray for enough boons to recharge 1 of my active defenses (either Dodge or Improved Parry as needed). As combat progresses, if I'm lucky and get a bonus recharge token on Path of the Summer Gale, I could hit for +8 damage using Path of the Hawk (from being 3 deep in conservative stance at that point). Combined with the Greatsword of Hoeth, that's a damage potential of 18. It's not likely to happen often, but it sure will be fun when it does!

FINAL THOUGHTS

The one thing I've learned most from this exercise? WFRP 3e is a cool game. With so many choices on varying levels (stats, skills, talents, action cards, etc...), I found character creation really allowed me to customize my career into something unique yet still reflect the background/concept I had developed. I can't wait to play.

So there you have it, folks. Any comments or criticisms? Our group chargen session is next weekend, so I've still got time to mess with this build.

Sincerely,

Yipe

General tips

you mentioned you liked to min-max a bit, nothing wrong in that. so I have included some general tips that I as a GM provide for my players.

1) Don't invest too much skills during Character Creation.

The thing is once you purchase the dedication bonus for completing a career you get a free specialization for each skill you trained in during play. You DON'T get a free specialization for skills you trained in during Creation process. Seeing that you can train 3 skills (2 for career advances +1 for the fixed skill advance). I would advice 1 CP on skills, and than purchase the three skills with xp. The math is simple.

You can spend 3 CP on skills to get 7xp worth of skills and specialization (4 skills +2 specializations + 1 dedication specialization)

or

you can spend 1 CP on skills to get 5xp wort of skills and specializations ( 2 skills + 3 dedication specializations).

the last option gives you the most in dedication bonus.

2) Avoid having 2 in a Characteristic, 3 is average

Having just one characteristic with a 2 is not that bad, but you should avoid at anycost having two 2 characteristics, especially in both a mental and physical characteristic, why? check up on the rules of being STRAINED!

So if you reduce the CP invested in skills, you should be able to crank that Fel to 3.

of course feel free to ignore everything I say

and good gaming

Mal Reynolds said:

I'm fairly certain it all balances out in the end:

Char A: Spends 3 CP at start on skills, then 1 xp for dedication, total 4 skills and 2 specs, so 6 xp worth for 4 cp/xp.

Char B: Spends 0 CP at start on skills, then 3 xp later, and finally 1 xp for dedication, total 4 skills and 3 specs, so 7 xp worth for 4 cp/xp.

So between 0 and 3 you "save" 1 cp/xp, but getting it early means higher survivability for the char (because to achive the dedication bonus you need to survive for 11 xp points), AND the gap is created between spending 0 and 1 CP on skills, because for 1 CP you get 1 extra skill, with no spec.

So if you're torn between spending 0 and 1, then spend 1, but if it's between 1 and 2, or 3, then you might as well spend 2 or 3.

I read the section on Fatigue and Stress. Strained no es bueno. Fortunately my Willpower is 3, which gives me a little reprieve should I really get hammered with stress tokens.

In order to bump my Fellowship up to 3, I'd have to lose all of my skills and specializations as I need the wealth for my Ulthuan Scale armor and action cards for, well, just about everything. I knew going in that I would be missing out on the free specializations from the dedication bonus, but I feel that having them up front helps define my character's concept (especially my Discipline spec Vigilance), so giving them up is a tough call. Plus I'll get to use those skills for 10 sessions, which might come in handy. Perhaps getting to keep the Greatsword of Hoeth is a good enough reward in and of itself?

Question: In another thread discussing starting skills, it was mentioned that you can spend your 10th advancement on a Rank 2 skill (as your character will be rank 10 at that point) and then get a free specialization in that skill from the dedication bonus.

Is this correct? If so, that might be a good way to go.

I'd do "protection" as a specialty of leadership in my game.

jh

Yipe said:

At the end of every career you have the chance to spend 1xp on a dedication bonus to close that career. This lets you keep your old career ability even after you've moved onto a new career. At the same time it allows you a free specialization in every career skill that you trained while you where leveling that career. Finally, it allows your transition to a new career to cost 1 less xp.

Planning ahead:

If I transitioned into the Soldier career, how do these advancements look (in order of purchase):

1. Riposte (mandatory action card)

2. Speed of Asuryan

3. Riposte with Greatsword (mandatory specialization)

4. Foresight (mandatory talent)

5. Fortune Die (St)

6. Conservative Stance

7. +1 Wound (mandatory wound)

8. +1 Wound

9. Leadership

10. Weapon Skill

I'm saving Final Stroke of the Master for my 2nd career, more for flavor than anything else.

I'm also considering the Investigator and Physician careers (though the latter requires First Aid).

Spivo said:

your math and reasoning is sound. another element which must be considered is how many skills the career has offer and how many skill advances you can purchase with xp.

the more skill advances your career offers the less you should invest in creation points. for instance if if you can train 5 skills during play, the bonus would be huge as you can end up with 5 free dedication bonus specializations.

Both your math and mine, suggest you risk ending up loosing at best 1 xp of free dedication skill specializations. and i think its a correct assumption. at worst you might be able to loose 2 xp worth of specializations by spending too much on skills during character creation.

you point out higher chance of survial having a skill both trained and a relevant specialization, that is something that cannot be underestimated. But it is a highly unknown factor of "how" deadly the few first sessions will be. from my experience this is a risk worth taking since most GMs goes easy on the players to begin with. so after a few sessions you should have been able to get the most relevant skills trained.

to summarize this whole creation points on skills vs dedication specializations, it fair to say that spending few creation points on skillls, can have a somewhat bigger reward when you finally get to buy the dedication bonus, that is if you survive up to that point. While spending maximum allowance on skills from the beginning, makes it easier for you to survive and reach the dedication bonus, but than with a slighter reward as a consequence.