Charmander said:
Friend of the Dork said:
It all sounds extremely clumsy, even more so if he actually has a weapon in the off hand. Try envisioning a Space Marine with chainsword and bolt pistol:
He shoots at the enemy, enemy closes, SM chops with his chainsword and then shoots 2-3 bolts into his chest. That's semi auto but still forbidden by these rules.
Now normal shooters without melee weapons will of course try to move backwards to get out of harms way, as they have a range advantage and to prevent the enemy to interfere with their shooting, but that doesen't mean they will pause to flip fire mode to single shot, they are likely to fire short bursts whenever they can to ward off the enemy and maybe hit. Losing the bonuses seems appropriate (even the FA one) but firing only a single controlled shot doesen't.
In the example though how does he shoot 2-3 bolts into the chest of the enemy just like that? Melee, as expressed in the rules, is theoretically a swirling mass, right, that's where the penalty to shoot into melee comes from. It's supposed to represent that you're busy moving, twisting, dodging, feinting, etc. The closeness of hand to hand is also why the fleeing rule exists. Your example is cinematic in a sense but in most cinematic moments (at least that I can think of) the bullets into the chest usually happen due to the guy being stunned or some other such moment of vulnerability.
But honestly to me this doesn't seem like a realism issue (as the full auto rules aren't all that realistic) it seems like a balance issue. Some indicate they play with the old rule and don't have issues. I can just say from my experience, expecially early on, autopistols became the hand to hand weapon of choice - pop some manstoppers in there and you've got a nice 1d10+2 pen 3 attack up to 12 times. Then that person graduates to a couple of nice s/3/- bolt pistols, and while their attacks are reduced their pen and damage goes up. This player doesn't have to put anything into strength or WS, and they're close in or better than hand to hand than their companion with a sword. And they're still good at range because they've dumped a ton into BS. But as always, YMMV, and people have indicated they've done this for a while without it feeling overpowered. If it works in your game, it works in your game.
From a realism perspective, pistols just plain don't work in hand to hand, let alone on full auto. If they did they'd train soldiers and cops to use them that way unstead of using their weapons as clubs or using their fists, elbows, heads, and everything else. So that, to me, isn't really part of the discussion.
@Gun Kata: Most of the images I recall of gunkata, save for maybe one, don't involve hand to hand combat. To me it feels more like an outrageously high initiative, sruprise rounds, and a ridiculous number of attacks per round outside of autofire. Don't get me wrong, it was a fun movie, but would rest firmly in the hands of ascended assassin types
How he shoots 2 rounds? Well he squeezes the trigger twice of course. It takes alot less time to squeeze a trigger than it takes to swing an arm around.
I understand that being attacked in close quarters could trigger some natural defensive reactions that makes shooting tricky, so I'm all for removing any bonus for doing so, such as the FA bonus. But if you can fire 1 round you can fire 2, 5, or maybe 10. And to represent the dodging and weaving you could apply the -20 BS firing into melee penalty. Good luck getting those 12 hits then.
I can't remember many scenes with melee range pistol shooting, but there are a few. I seem to remember more of it from Equillibrium but it's been awhile since I saw it. The Treasure Island tv-movie (with Charlton Heston as Long John Silver) the poy uses two flintlock pistols to ward off a pirate while in a bird's nest. As the pirate attacks with a knife, the boy discharges both pistols straight into the pirate's chest, and recieves a knife in his shoulder in return.
Even in RL there is such a thing as extreme close quarters shooting. And no, they don't just shoot a single shot...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHB7R-aL9Go
Balance wise the gunslinger is alwys better at range anyway, he never WANTS to get in close combat where he'll lose out on bonuses for range. And hitting with 5 DoS is hard even for skilled shooters since you don't get the PB bonus. And then it's the fact that close combat weapons can really pack a punch especially with some melee talents. A Chainsword with Lightening Strike is better than an autopistol with manstoppers. Add in two-weapon combat (with the penalties it has) and chain and power weapons win. A Monosword is not as good but does potentially more damage than a single autopistol bullet.
All in all my players tend to use melee weapons in melee, and even the gunslinger scum whips out his old "Daemonchoppa" when he has to, or stays the hell out of close combat. The main killer in the group is the Assassin with TWW, Lightening Attack, Powerblade+Lathe blade attacks.
