XX = ape starting place

OO = empty space

HH = ape final place

OOOOXXO

OOOOO O O

OOOOO O O

OOOOOHO

OOOOOHO

Could an ape end its movement with a leap as it is shown in the diagram? Or could it jump to the right or the left only?

gran_orco said:

I don't remember if apes are restricted to only jumping forward/backward or if they're allowed to jump sideways as well. Assuming they are, however, I'm pretty sure they can't change orientation in midair. The ape would have to land horizontally, as it began according to the diagram. Or spend one MP turning vertical before Leaping, which would shorten his potential Leap by 2 spaces (he probably still has enough MP to complete the shown Leap anyway)

No sideways Leaps are allowed. The ape has to spend a MP to reposition itself.

gran_orco said:

I don't see any reason why not.
The movement is legal (normally I mean), in a straight line and does not cover 'additional spaces' by being sideways.

Hm, the Leap rules say "The figure moves in a straight line (vertical or horizontal, but not diagonal)".

If you allow that move (and the FAQ entry which I had in my mind actually doesn´t forbid it), the question comes up whether one half of the ape moved non-vertical and non-horizontal, in the example that would be the left-hand ape half.

Movement for long monsters is based on one of their squares, and that square pulls the rest of the figure along. What the back half does is irrelevant when determining how it can move, so it should be irrelevant in determining how it just finished moving.

James McMurray said:

I think so. But I wanted to know more opinions.

So, Leaps like the following two would also be legal?

XX = ape starting place

OO = empty space

HH = ape final place

LL = spaces subject to Leap attack

OOOOXXO

OOOOO L O

OOOOO L O

OOOOO L O

OOOOOHH

OOOOXXO

OOOOO L O

OOOOO L O

OOOOO L O

OOOOHHO

This is not the same example. The final place of the ape would require one additional point of movement after the jump.

Parathion said:

I would say no because (according to what James was saying) you pick one half of the ape to do the moving and the other half trails behind. In both of your examples, the "trailing" end has either "swung out" - which it shouldn't be able to do - or the leading half has taken a sharp turn at the end of the Leap causing the trailing half to get pulled into the previous space the forward half occupied. Since a Leap has to be made in a straight line, that would be disallowed.

Now, if the ape has MP remaining after this Leap, he can continue moving and thus make the turn to put him in your final position (as shown in either diagram), but the marked spaces would not be the technical "landing spaces" of the Leap in that case. It would be the last L space marked and the H immediately below it. This only matters in that the final L space would need to be empty to keep things legal.

I can perform both movements in my examples for 4 MP each, using normal movement rules.

The half (be it front or back half) that moved down vertically is always the same, moving in a straight line.

Applying all the rules and your comments, the Leap should be legal, unless I overlooked something.

Parathion said:

FAQ, page 11:

Q: When making a Leap attack, can a blood ape leap
" sideways " so that it affects twice as much area?
A: No . Refer to the large figure movement rules on page
15 and the diagram on page 17 of the "Journeys in the
Dark" rules. Monsters using Leap must still follow all
normal rules for movement except as specifically noted.

AoD, page 9:

A figure is limited to one Leap attack per turn, and the figure
cannot move any further after making the attack .

FAQ, page 12:

Q: If a Blood Ape makes a Leap without making a Leap
attack, do his remaining movement points still get used?
A: Yes, a Leap uses all remaining movement points . As
Leap uses movement points, this does allow a figure with
Grapple to pin it in place. A figure may not be grappled
mid-leap however, it may only be grappled on the ground.

So no, you cannot do a sideways movement like you say, and you cannot leap and move any further.

I have doubt because of this: "The figure moves in a straight line (vertical or horizontal, but not diagonal)" , and I did the question because I did not know if my movement was considered a straight line because the final position was not identical to the starting position. But I am really sure that your movement is not legal.

The first FAQ entry is specifically aimed at leaping sideways to cover twice as many spaces with the attack. I clearly noted which spaces the ape leaps over in my examples, indicating no sideways movement, ever.

As for moving after the Leap, that was falsely brought here by Steve-O, and is not necessary to perform my example moves.

In my examples one ape half moves in vertical, straight line only. What the other half does is not relevant as James stated. If that is not true, then your initial example is not legal as well, since one of the ape halves does not move in a straight vertical line.

Parathion said:

Sure, but Leap uses a subset of the normal movement rules so I don't see how that matters.

Large Monster Movement, Descent p. 15

1. The figure moves one half of its body into a non-diagonal adjacent space while the other half of its body moves into the space(s) that the first half just vacated
2. The figure moves to a diagonally adjacent space by moving both halves of its body in the same diagonal direction (also called “sidestepping”). Both types of movement are illustrated in the diagram on page 17.

#1 isn't an option, as it would require 5 movement points to reach the final state and one of those moves would not be in a straight line. #2 isn't an option because it requires diagonal movement, which Leap does not allow. That it also wouldn't be in a straight line is another nail in the coffin.

James McMurray said:

This is what I was driving at. The half of the ape that isn't "moving" is required to follow the half that is "moving," through the spaces the moving half goes through, only one step behind. It can't "just end up" sticking off in any direction from where the moving half stops, it must be occupying the space which the moving half occupied immediately prior to its final stopping place. Barring the diagonal option #2 above, of course, which is diagonal movement and not allowed during a Leap anyway.

The bit about moving after the Leap was my bad, I misremembered the rules. The bottom line is the ape can't end up in either of the positions you showed immediately after finishing the Leap.

I really don't understand the reason for this topic in the leaping rules it clearly shows how can you leap and land. There is no if... etc see the diagram and it ends there. You can't leap sideways and you must leap and land in the same manner as shown in the photo for leaping.

The Blood Apes to take some reading to fully figure out.
Looks like you guys all agree now that Apes can only jump straight on and not sideways.
There are soooo many rules in Descent it's easy to miss lots of stuff. This was a good topic for the forum.
Good work guys!

Here's an added tidbit I learned recently regarding apes. If an Ape leaps and does not jump over any Heroes he may make a single attack against a Hero who is adjacent to his landing spot.

Q: Is it possible to Leap without doing a Leap attack? The
AoD rules state that doing an attack roll is not mandatory
with a Leap; if a figure does not roll attack dice, does it
count as not attacking, and can said figure then make a
normal attack?
A: The figure may perform the leap movement without
making an attack. At the end of the movement, the figure
may make one normal attack against any models it could
normally target.

When I'm the OL I really do love Blood Apes!

Parathion said:

You can't do the moves you posited that have the ape finishing in a E-W position. James' statement was technically incorrect and you are abusing that technical incorrectness. The back half is not 'irrelevant', it must instead follow the front half as per the large monster movement quoted.

Since the back half must follow the front half, to get to the EW position at the end you must finish the southerly 'leap' movement by moving the front half either E or W and the back half follows it into the 'straight' position. That is clearly not moving 'straight' as the front half has moved S and then E/W. Therefore moving after the Leap is necessary for your example moves. Unless you have some other clever trick I can't see?

Even after five years of playing Descent, the 2x1 creatures still sometimes manage to fool me, especially when moving them on imaginary diagrams on the forum. Ignore my examples with E-W end positions.

Drglord said:

My diagram is not similar to that of the rules, and however it seems to be legal (if you see it, the ape does not finish in the same position). I had the doubt about the position, not the movement. I did not know if the ape should end its movement looking to the east if it started the leap looking to the east.

So my movement was correct, although it is not like the diagram in the rulebook.

Corbon said:

That's not what I said. Or rather it broadens the meaning of what I said by tossing out the majority of my post.