Hai.

With the introduction of the Player's Vault, is there any point in getting the Adventurer's Toolkit? I have neither but want the stuff from the Toolkit, but if I understand it correctly the Player's Vault has everything the toolkit came with and more. Is this correct?

bladerunner_35 said:

I think the players vault only has the things from the big core box.

That is my understanding too ... only the careers from the core set are in the Player's Vault.

If you want to play a Sword Master with the cards you need the Adventurer's Toolkit.

The Player's GUIDE has all the careers.

Wrong

Wrong

Wrong

The players guide has EVERYTHING released to date.

jh

Emirikol said:

You are right of course... but the fact that we were talking about the Vault makes it somewhat irrelevant

Doh, are you serious that the Vault doesn't have a complete card set?

jh

Emirikol said:

I assume so (I don't have the Vault), but the description says 30 careers which is the same number as the Core Set. The Player's Guide has 61.

The Adventurer's Toolkit has 10 I believe, so if you want ALL the careers on cards you need to buy the expansions too.

Hmmm..not that I was going to pick up the vaults, because I have all the originals..but that makes the players guide "lite" even more attractive.

jh

FFG did not want to make the Vault nor any of the supplements obsolete with the Guides/Vaults, from what they said.

I'm actually surprised that the PG has the information from supplements in it (and think it was a "bad call" to do so).

dvang said:

I'm also surprised, but thing it was a very good call. It made the Players Guide a must have for me...and I also own all the other supplements.

Thanks for the info guys!

dvang said:

A bad call? Why?

If they hadn't the PG would be pointless. The great thing about is being able to find everything in the book.

It won't be kept up to date, so "having everything" won't be true very quickly. As soon as the next supplement arrives with new actions.

The PG/PV/GMG/GMV were meant to mimic/divide the Core Set, not the expansions, and it was meant to NOT replace those. By the PG including the careers and actions from supplements like the Toolkit, other than the cards (and adventures), they have reduced the desirability and need for the supplements that have been produced to date. THAT is why it is a "bad call". They have greatly reduced the value of the A.Toolkit (especially) and the currently released supplements because the majority of the information can now be found in the PG.

The PG would have been a fine resource just with listing the Core Set actions/talents as well as containing rules and examples for players.

Instead, since it has actions and talents for supplements too ... you've now got threads like this where it becomes "Why buy the toolkit when everything is in the PG?", and the only answer is "you get cards for those talents". FFG made a big production about the guides and vaults (except the Creature) not obviating or reducing the value of their previous releases which people had already purchased ... but this, in fact, DID reduce the value of all the currently released supplements (that introduced additional careers/actions). I'm not saying that I wouldn't buy the supplements for the cards, but I do think the supplements are cheapened by this, as well as essentially saying that FFG "lied" when they said the PG included only material from the Core Set.

Yeah well... but I am happy that they have put all the info into the new guides and it's the main reason I bought them. If it was just updated core rules, then I wouldn't have bought them and I am quite sure I'm not the only one with that opinion. For me having all the stuff released until now in three books is fantastic. I like the tables for cards etc. I can't see how putting all the info into those books can hurt anyone.

The error they made however is with the vaults. They should have included all the cards etc. released up until now for the complete package if you bought all three guides and vaults. But that would make the older products obsolete, so they did the only logical thing to do from a financial standpoint. I doubt making a PG/GMV with just the core box info would have been an economical sound idea.

When they wanted to create "WFRP lite" there really wasn't any other way to do it unless they wanted those "lite" players to either spend money on cards or play without all rules. It makes perfect sense for me both seen from a financial standpoint and from the idea of the "WFRP lite" option that some players have asked for.

While they can change their minds, of course, FFG has said that they aren't going to do more Guides/Vaults. So, regardless, "Lite" groups will end up missing out on new supplemental materials anyway unless they buy those supplements with cards. The game can be played just fine using the Core Set careers and action cards, other than the other priest and wizard orders/colleges, so there was no need to put everything else from the supplements into the PG ... since the intent of the PG that was put forward was as an alternative to the CORE SET. So that is a reasonable decision to make. Essentially, the PG/PV/GMG/GMV were meant to "break up" the core set (CORE SET, not supplements) so that people didn't have to buy the entire core set if they only wanted some of the materials, and so that the basic rules were available for those who didn't want all the bits that come with the Core Set (ie, "Lite" version). While it's nice that they included the careers and talents and actions from supplements in the PG, it 'cheapens' the purchase of those supplements, which FFG had said they would not do. That is part of my reaction to this. The PG / GMG / PV / GMV, we were told, were supposed to provide an alternative to the Core Set. The Core Set is a better deal if you get everything. Now, the PG appears to contain half the materials/invormation from 3 supplements too. While that's excellent for those who hadn't already bought the supplements, it seems a bit of a slap in the face to those that have.

I don't see any "error" made with the vaults. If the game had been designed around this concept of Guide+Vault from the start, then yes it would have been the way to go. However, as you said, if they had included the cards in the vault as well, then the only remaining 'unique' thing in the supplement would be the adventure. While the adventures are good, the value of the supplements are diminished if you can get the other material elsewhere.

So, while the PG was peddled to me by FFG as something I don't really need to pick up (since I have the Core Set + expansions), between the many new rules, rules clarifications, plus a list of EVERY career/talent/action (including from released supplements), it becomes almost mandatory to get, despite my already having the majority of the information already. While I expected to get it at some point, this wasn't what I was told it was, which is what annoys me about how this was done.

Honestly, the better business decision would be to keep the majority of the supplemental careers/actions/talents out of the PG, so that they can sell more supplements. As it is, unless someone want the cards (which they can potentially make their own, or use "lite") or the adventure, there is no need to purchase any of the supplements. That sounds like a bad business decision to me.

I just mentioned this in another thread, but the Crature's Vault does this too (act as an unoffical modifier of previous supplements).

For better or worse, the new actions presented there for other expansions / adventures can make a big difference and would almost make it required in mind.

Thought they never said it didn't have new materials so its less problematic.

But I don't really see what you want dvang? That they kept all the small issues (like the spear) from the core rules and intentionally didn't clarify anything just so the PG isn't of any value to you. That would be really silly.

GullyFoyle said:

FFG always said that the creature guide and creature vault had new creatures.

@Gallows

I think I just wanted FFG to have said, up front, that the PG would have significantly updated rules and would contain all actions/talents/careers from Core+all supplements. Instead, they said it would just have the careers/actions/talents from the Core Set, a few rules clarifications, and some additional examples.

I guess it depends on interpretation as I got the impression from the info that the rules from all the releases up to "Faith" would be included.

The way I see it the relevancy of all the boxed sets remains the same: depends on the type of gamer you are.
If you are into the playing aids and cards then all the releases are as relevant as they ever were. "Play without the ease of grabbing a card off the top of a deck with all rules at players finger tips? no thanks..." "Update my decks with each release!"
If you don't like all the additional stuff, well you probably never intended to buy any of WFR3 and the books allow a familiar entry point. "Let me just roll and look up in are chart, done! I don't care if future releases of bits and pieces make what I'm playing with redundant to other groups" "Get this stuff out of my face, I cant find my eraser!"

I was relieved with the PG/GMG as the disperate nature of the books and deepening decks was starting to get overwhelming. Now I feel ready for the next wave of boxed releases and have a go-to book to hand to new players who want to really explore their options while other players aren't disadvantaged by being rule book allergic. And less thumbing through the cards by one and all to discover their options. Does it mater that some of the charts will soon be redundant? thats the price of playing lite in a system designed differently.

No way I would of bought the PG if it didn't pull together data from a reasonable amount of the releases.

They have always promoted that all those rules would be in the books as far as I know. It's the only reason I bought it (although I own everything else as well).

Dudes,

Just thought i'd by and let you know we just released the pilot and episode 1 of the Reckless Dice Podcast.

The reason i post that here, is because we used this thread as a talking point in the Q&A portion of episode 1. If you would like to hear our thoughts, please check out the podcast on iTunes or at the official site: www.RecklessDice.Rorschach.net or the mirror at www.GitzmansGallery.com.

Game on!

Gitzman

Gallows said:

Thanks for bumping this, I looked for something on this.

So so I am sure I understand, the A Toolkit isn't "obsolete" in that it's the only way to get the cards it contains. However, if you purchase the Players Guide you get all of the information that's contained in the Toolkit (with a bunch of other pretty neat extras). The only way to get the cards is the Toolkit, but that's really the only value of the Toolkit now?

VegasBatman said:

I was trying to post a link to your post and the forum software went cooky ...

The only necessity the Adventure's Toolkit has is the career cards and career stand-ups, but the extra set of action cards (particularly the basic attacks) and some extra talents can be useful for a group if your playing with a lot of people short on cards.

GullyFoyle said:

Well I am glad it did, because this thread helped a bit. We do have quite a few people... it seems though, as a player, the guide might be of better value and the Toolkit would be a better purchase for the GM? Only, the threads I have read don't ever seem to suggest the GM ever buy the toolkit.