Hi,

so we all know that the Storm Bolter as it is seems to be a miracle weapon, It is essentially a bolter that just every time it hits, it actually hits twice. This puts it in a real danger of overpowering every other weapon basic weapon in the game, and some of the heavy ones.

Lots of people have suggested things like limiting the number of hits to 4 per full auto to compensate but that seems to me to be a bit arbitrary. However I was thinking, what is a storm bolter good for and I looked into TT for my examples

1. 2nd edition Storm bolter. I believe it might have had strength 5 rather than strength 4 but the main difference was that when it inflicted a hit you rolled the sustained fire die to see how many hits you actually inflicted. this was a 6 sided die labelled 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, jam. where a jam resulted in 0 hits this turn and next turn the weapon had to be unjammed. when firing this over 7 turns it occurs to me that the modal (most common) result will be a total of 9 hits over the 7 turns implying that the average fire rate was not even close to twice the rate of a bolter, but more like 1.3 times.

2. 3rd edition Storm Bolter. In this version the Storm Bolter is assault 2 and the Bolter is rapid fire. This means that both can fire a maximum of 2 times, but the Bolter can only do so over short range and if the firer does not move on his turn wheras a Storm Bolter can do so even if the firer is moved in his turn. This implies that the Storm Bolter is best for 'Storm'ing defences, because it is capable of firing accurately at its full rate even if the firer is also moving towards the enemy

3. Modern Storm Bolter. I forget which version we are on now, 5? I have not played in some time. But I am reasonable sure that the most recent 40k rule set has changed rapid fire so that range is irrelevant and it is just a question of whether or not the firer moved as to whether he can rapid fire.

In summary, It seems to me that a Storm Bolter has never been a Bolter that fires twice as fast, but rather a Bolter that can fire accurately that can fire even if the firer is on the moved. Therefore I propose changing Storm to

Storm: When a weapon with the Storm quality is fired on semi or full auto the firer may make a half move at no penalty as part of the action.

the effects of this change would be twofold. 1st it would give the Storm bolter a specific niche as a weapon that can be used for laying down fire while still approaching enemy defences and 2nd it would weaken the storm bolter enough to give all the other weapons a chance to shine, people might actually get the specialist weapons instead of loading up on storm bolters.

So yeah what do people think? is my idea insane and stupid or is it well justified and logical? is it just meh?

Narky

The problem I have it is that you're looking at it from the rule's side only, not from the fluff's side. What is a storm bolter? It's two bolters tightly linked to each other - all improvement over the normal bolter, whether it's higher strength or a better firing rate or whatever, derives from the increased output of bolts, right?

So what is then the difference between twin-linked and storm? I would say that storm weapons are geared so that the two weapons can be assumed to always strike the same target because they have almost the same point of impact.

Twin-linked weapons have a wider spread. Which means that it is assumed that one shot always misses - but due to there being two shots ringing out there is a higher chance of the enemy catching one of the two shots than with a non-twin-linked weapons.

One possible fix to the Storm Bolter being overpowered would be to not make the distinction and count all storm weapons as having the twin-linked quality.

Alex

The only thing I see wrong with the Storm Bolter is that the Fire Selector modification is not banned from the weapon. No fire selector on the Storm Bolter, to me, makes a huge difference in how it is going to be used.

Possibly, it might need to be moved up to the Heavy category from Basic. Making it Heavy would have a big impact on the use of the weapon, while leaving the twin-linked bolter as a Basic weapon.

Also remember that 8 hits is max with a Storm Bolter, with a dodge negating two hits per DoS. A Heavy Bolter can output 10 hits at higher damage, with a dodge only negating 1 hit per DoS.

Try lining up either two Eldar, or two Genestealers against two Devs. One with a Storm Bolter, one with a Heavy Bolter and count hits as the aliens charge. See which weapon actually hits more vs the enemies dodge. I think that may change your mind as to any problem with the two weapons.

And I would again suggest that since the Storm quality assumes that two shots always hit the same target, you rule that against hordes you don't get to have 8 hits but instead 2x4, that is 2 chances to score 1 Wound point damage with a max of 4 hits.

That would be a serious nerf in comparison to the HB who'll chew down hordes hard. And if you slightly decrease damage of all bolt weapons, it's going to hit the storm bolter twice as hard too.

Alex

You could just modify the Storm quality to say: Stom has no effect on hordes, use the weapons base RoF to determine the number of hits, but double the ammo is consumed as per normal.

So a Storm Bolter firing on full auto has a chance to hit a horde up to a maximum of 4 times, but 8 rounds of ammo will be expended.

So a heavy bolter costs 20 req, or comes basic with a devestator, and inflicts slighly more damage at a slightly higher pen. A Storm Bolter requires respected rank and costs 20 req, takes 2 full rounds to reload, and cannot be hooked to a backpack ammo supply (though it can, somehow, have a fire selector added to it even though I find the concept of 6 clips sticking off of a bolter to be even more ridiculous than the 3 clip situation with the basic boltgun- no one that I've found can supply me with reasonable art to show how this is possible, maybe I should ask Ross). To fire on full auto is still a full round action which means you're not really walking around all that much with either weapon.

All those things combined makes it to me not as overpowered as it may first seem, and I'm in the camp that doesn't see it as overpowered.

Both 'fixes' however seem to have merit from an interesting gameplay standpoint. Either make it twin linked to get the bonus to hit, or to make it a 'shoot on the run' type of weapon and say because it fires twice as many shots running around the battle field doesn't reduce your chance to hit (though what happens if you stay stationary and fire it?). Both would change up the gameplay and make the use different, if that's the feel you want to create.

I'm gonna randomly throw this out, just off the top of my head, based on my perceptions of fluff and 40K tech:

Bolter - fire selector ok, but the extra ammo mags are small, carrying 12, or even 6 rounds of specialist ammo. Otherwise you've got three full-sized bolter mags sticking out of that gun. Kinda weird-looking to me.

Stormbolter - no fire selector. Period. Trying to squeeze the SB's assault-fire components together with two extra magazines just doesn't fly.

Seems to me that the weapons are designed for different functions. Bolters are a tactical weapon, designed to be modified for things like fire-selectors, combis, etc. Whereas the Storm Bolter is designed as a CQB assault weapon, cleaning space hulk corridors, etc.

Why not just fiddle the rules some to match the fluff? I hate when things get too 'ruley'. RP and fluff is king in my book. Rules should just abstractly reflect and the fluff.

all these points about storm bolter versus heavy bolter are true, but they are different classes of weapon and are used for different things. what I am worried about is if you are gonna have a basic weapon why would you ever not want a storm bolter? you might get a storm bolter and a meltagun or a storm bolter and a flamer but I still think in almost all situations you would be better served with a master crafted storm bolter than with any other basic weapon on the list

[edit] for example, meltagun versus storm bolter. both are same price and same level of respect.

the melta gun has 1/5th the range, and does 3 damage and 8 pen more than a storm bolter shot, at 10 meters or closer the meltagun has an extra d10damage as well.

the storm bolter has tearing, the potential to do 8 hits, it is harder to dodge than a meltagun because you still need 3 degrees of success to dodge the whole shot compared with straight success. and also even without fire selector the storm bolter can fire for 7 consecutive turns and then 1 turn on semi auto, wheras a meltagun only has 6 shots in its clip.

so yes if we assume the following things

1. the enemy does not dodge (if he did dodge it would only benefit the storm bolter anyway)

2. both weapons automatically hit all the time (given that full auto gives a +20 a straight hit with a melta gun would be 6 hits with a storm bolter and a straight miss with a meltagun 4 hits so again this rule benefits the meltagun)

3. I have calculated this in the past and I cant remember the exact number but tearing increases the mean roll to 14 ish on a 2d10. (anyone is welcome to check this)

Average damage of a storm bolter is 8*(19-tb-(armour-5)) average damage of a Meltagun even as short range is 24.5-tb-(armour-13)

against a tau crisis suit tb =10 armour=9

stormbolter inflicts 40, meltagun inflicts 14.5

to include higher power monsters the model has to be changed slightly as negative wounds don't exist and at the moment I have assumed they do. But my point is that a storm bolter does more damage at longer range, reloads less frequently and is easier to hit with than a meltagun [/edit]

How long are combat rounds supposed to be?

8 bolt rounds on full-auto is very clearly and abstraction, as are the 10 from the HB. So half damage against hordes because two rounds are hitting each target seems a little odd to me and very off-kilter. SBs are designed to put down a hail of fire and kill lots of things. They're good weapons. That's why Terminators use them.

If I was to consider nerfing them, it'd either be to knock down the range a bit to represent the fearsome recoil or maybe to allow fire-selectors, but limit the total magazine size to... erm... say 100, rather than 180.

Nerfing storm bolters is surely simply going to drive more players into the comforting arms of heavy bolters.

I don't have a problem with players murdering hordes: I have more of them!

Siranui said:

Looking at the mechanics, you cannot argue that the difference between Storm and Twin-Linked is in anything but the spread. Both represent shots being fired of quasi-simultaneously. Furthermore if the spread is narrow, the only additional effect you get against hordes is a psychological one, if any. To a horde it doesn't make all the difference whether one or two bolt shots explode in that same guardsman's chest (he'd be dead anyway). Because looking at the non-horde mechanics, the same guardsman horde member would have been struck twice.

Or in other words: unlike as with the heavy bolter you could not distribute one hit on 8 non-horde genestealers each, even if you rolled 10 DoS. With a Heavy Bolter you could. That's why the HB is better against hordes than the Storm Bolter. And don't forget: the horde rules are only an abstraction of the normal rules for speed purposes. Which is why claim the 4x2 rule transfers the SB (given the existing mechanic) into the horde system best.

Alex

The problem is not the storm bolter being 'too good' against hordes, because it frankly really doesn't matter much, especially considering the HB and the Heavy flamer (heck: You don't even need to pick the dice up when using a flamer, and even normal ones do 5+1d5). The problem is melta and plasma weapons aren't good enough.

I personally have no problem with a SB doing 9 horde damage. It's supposed to be firing a mass of shells and seems ideally suited to the job.

C'mon: HB has a RoF of 10 yet we can spread shots over ten members of a horde, yet we can't with the SB? I'm also dubious that anyone would design it to fire both barrels at once anyway, due to recoil.

Siranui said:

Recoil doesn't seem to be too much of a problem in general but that's not the point.

The problem isn't just that melta and plasma are not good enough. The problem is that the HB is too good. We have been calculating this through before. And the HB has talents and which aggrivate the problem.

Take a simple Talent as Mighty Shot. The Multi-Melta gets a net +2 to damage overall. With the HB you are facing a net gain of up to +20 damage points. Add in the Tactical's Bolter Mastery you get another +2/hit (an +1 hit due to 10 to hit). Or add in Kraken rounds.

I did nerf the HB and promptly was informed by boruta that nerfing the HB's ROF and damage causes the Storm Bolter to become the general weapon of choice. So my aim is to find the right balance.

Alex

I think that there's no reason that SBs shouldn't be a great general weapon of choice, to be honest. The fact that they strap them onto terminators rather than plasma guns or meltaguns speaks for itself: When it comes to a horde of critters coming towards you, the SB should certainly be the weapon of choice.

Whereas if it's a heavy tank or dreadnought, then it's time for the plasma and melta weapons. At the moment that fails not because the SB is too good against hordes, but that it's too good (by way of all those dice potentially rolling up due to having two dice, tearing and the ROF) against armour. Basically, I don't think this is fixing the true issue: Lots of dice = more roll-ups = horrific damage against well-armoured targets.

Bringing the flamer into it again, that's 5+1d5 horde damage right there, with no dice roll required. Granted, flamers don't have the same talent support as bolters do, but that's not a facet of the weapon system.

Rather than take away what SBs are supposed to be good at (killing lots of things), how about taking away what they're not supposed to be good at (dealing with heavy armour) by... well, off the top of my head perhaps disallowing RF on lower PEN weapons against highly armoured targets. After all: You can fire a .50 BMG SLAP at the front armour of a main battle tank for as long as you want: It's not magically going to suddenly find a weak spot and make the tank explode.

Plasma, Melta and Lascannon are all anti-vehicle and anti-personnel weapons at the same time.

- Plasma is for heavy infantry (Terminators), monstrous creatures, and light vehicles. You don't fight a Land Raider with Plasma.
- Melta is for monstrous creatures and heavy vehicles (Plasma Cannon having a radius makes it better against infantry than a multi-melta)
- Lascannon is similar to Melta

Against hordes you primarily pick Flamers, Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles, not the Storm Bolter. Storm Bolter is like the Bolter only more so - a universal weapon. It's strength is it's versatility. It doesn't excel against any but is good against most.

I don't think armour is all that a problem if you take just a few points of the Bolters damage. Again ROF works as a multiplier. Also what you said about armour is true - to a degree. So how about only adding d5 on RF against mech? Or only allowing a single d10 to be added (no further stacking of damage)? The point is in limiting the max penetration a weapon can achieve.

What I can understand is having the Storm weapon being an effective weapon while you Half Move or Tactical Advance towards the Enemy. At present the mechanics say it's not though.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I totally hear you on trying to balance the two (and the HB DOES need the nerf), but given that they're comparative in cost, and the SB still does marginally less damage/pen, and has fewer rounds before it has to reload I'm not following that there is a broken bit here that would warrant more extreme nerfing such as 'reducing' it to twin linked (unless of course you're going for more of a tactical feel with the weapon as I discussed prevously, in which case go for it).

And of course I'm currently ignoring the fact that meltas and plasmas will always suck compared to bolt weapons unless you implement either the broad bolt gun nerf or the broad plasma/melta boost, just focusing on HB, SB, and standard boltgun.

I believe both the general bolter nerf, as well as the plasma/melta boost, will be necessary. I will have to do a calculation one of these days with a maxed out Tactical or Dev using the HB/SB versus maxed out Plasma/Melta against Master-class enemies.

And after that Melee will need a general glance over, especially the BA Assault.

Alex

My group is running slightly different rules for Full-Auto Fire, where the weapon only inflicts an extra hit every 3 degrees of success (with the usual +10 modifier). This is increased to an extra hit every 2 degrees of success with the Bulging Biceps Talent (which all DW Marines have). This can be increased one step further by mounting the weapon on a vehicle, giving an extra hit every degree of success.

What I propose for Storm Bolters (using the Full-Auto Fire rules we play by) is increasing their RoF to S/3/6, and changing the Storm quality to making the weapon count as one step more braced (ie causing an extra hit every degree of success for a DW Space Marine).

This works in the fluff, making the weapon more of an assault/mobile weapon than the Heavy Bolter, while also making it rules-wise both better than the regular Bolter (as it should be, being restricted to Respected characters and costing more Requisition) and keeping it quirky enough not to make it automatically better than the Heavy Bolter for a static fire position.