Tyrion's Enforcers: "If you have fewer cards in hand than each opponent, Tyrion's Enforcers can attack or defend military challenges while knelt."

Frozen Moat: "Challenges: Kneel Frozen Moat to choose 1 attacking character. Until the end of the challenge, treat that character as if its printed text box were blank."

If I declare an already kneeling Tyrion's Enforcers (TE) as an attacker during a military challenge, and my opponent blanks him with Frozen Moat in the Player Action Window after I declare and kneel attackers, is there a memory of TE having already knelt when being declared for a challenge, so that they become ineligble to attack and are thus removed, or does Frozen Moat do nothing, as they were eligible for attack when I declared them.

This came up yesterday, and we collectively ruled that Frozen Moat does nothing in this case, but I wanted to make sure we did the right thing.

Saturnine said:

I see it the same way. As far as the framework and action windows are concerned, the kneeled enforcers are finished with their task so there is no 'if you had known then, you wouldn't have been able to'. If things turn out to be another way, I think that will douse the kindling flame of affection for the game, because I do not seem able to grasp what it's all about...

You are both correct. Once a character is legally participating in a challenge, only an effect that specifically removes it from the challenge (or from play) can stop it from participating. You cannot "retroactively" make it an ineligible attacker (or defender).

The situation comes up a lot more often with people removing icons from an attacking character during the challenge and trying to reason that it can no longer attack, but the "blanked after declared" kneeling Enforcers amounts to the same thing. The character was legally declared as an attacker. Something happens afterwards that would have made it ineligible to be declared as an attacker. But you're too late to make it ineligible because it is already attacking. You can only go forward in this game, so there is never any "backwards ineligibility."

So while there is no memory that the Enforcers were kneeling when they were declared, but it doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that is legally became a participant in the challenge - and nothing has specifically said "it's not participating anymore."

oops double posted.

There actually is an action window right at the start of the challenges before the attackers are declared. Page 20 of most recent FAQ. So you could use frozen moat there to prevent the TE from being able to be declared right ktom ?

edit: NM wouldn't work as frozen moat targets participating character.

Toqtamish said:

It comes down to making the Enforcers ineligible before they are declared instead of after. One helps, the other does not.

Yeah I caught myself as I replied.

Thanks for the clarification. Glad to know we were correct in our reasoning.