Our group has Ascended and I'm finding that I'm confused by some of the available talents. I'll use my own character for an example.

A rank 9 Judge may purchase the following:

Peer (Adeptus Arbites) (700)

An Arbitrator may purchase the same at rank 2 for only 100 points.

Does this imply that it must be purchased again to affect influence (though the description in Ascension does not say so specifically while the description for Good Reputation does)? Or does this mean that if an Arbitrator did not pick this up during their career, then they have to pay this now. And if the latter is true, does that mean Ascended characters cannot return to their previous careers for further point spending?

Sorry if this has been brought up before, my search-fu is weak.

Justicar said:

That's a damned good question. Given that it is stated that an Ascended character retains access to all previous career ranks to purchase advances from; and also gains access to the path(s) not chosen, I would think it is intended to parallel how the Good Reputation talents are described in Ascension . Another possibility is that it is there for characters who may have ascended to Judge without previously having been an Arbitrator ; something which can be allowed by the GM with a good enough story. After all, the Sage has access to Unnatural Intelligence (2) at Rank 9 for 1000 experience, but a Rank 8 Adept (Sage) has access to it for a mere 500 experience. But not all Sages will have ascended from Adept . Some may have been Tech-Priests .

The choices merely point out the most likely paths a character of a basic career will ascend to.

-=Brother Praetus=-

The other possibility is that you took an alternate rank advancement at rank 2 and never had access to that peer talent until you hit rank 9.

Brother Praetus said:

As my military psyker character's ascension draws near, can you please tell me where i can find that rule? I thought the access to previously untrodden paths was only possible for ascension characters build from scratch, not for those advancing from acolythes to throne agents. I could save a bunch of xp by not having to buy psy rating 6 (and the entailing powers) in the primaris psyker ranks.

Thanks for any helpful clarification!

Hornesch said:

Page 25 of Ascension in the Top-Down Approach , second bullet point.

• The player is not required to a particular branch in his career. All branches are open for him to advancements from.

When I asked if this meant a character advanced from rank 1 to ascended could take from any branch after their ascension the answer I received was " yes, an ascended character has full access to all of the branches of their basic career, but note that advances from alternate career ranks are not available unless the character actually chose that rank sometime during their development. " This was shortly after Ascension was released. It should be somewhere in the forums, I tend to post those to threads.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

While I think it's good that they gain some flexbility, and a Psyker can't suddenly gain the stuff from the Morteriat Reaper if they weren't a Morteriat Reaper, this means it's a huge advantage for anyone to take as many alternative ranks as possible.

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just not sure I'm comfortable.

Face Eater said:

Well, your example is one not even available to a Psyker, but I think you were attempting to demonstrate how ludicrous someone might try to take things.

Given you are only allowed free access to the normal career advances from your basic career once ascended, or the alternate rank(s) you've taken it's not that terrible. And, personally, any player who would try to justify more than 2 different alternate ranks is probably not going to be in one of my games anyway.

Some characters might be able to justifiably acquire more than one alternate rank, though. Just about any character could become a Inquisitorial Legate after having accessed another alternate advance, for instance. Ultimately, any and all advances, even those in the normal career trees, is subject to the approval of the GM.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

This only applies to newly created Ascension characters, not Ascending characters. Page 23 acolytes to agents : "Players make Throne Agents in two different ways. The first is by levelling up an existing Rank 8 character from Dark Heresy. In this situation, the player should follow through the steps found on page 28, taking their character through the Transition Package Process, choosing an Ascended Career, and spending the 500 experience automatically awarded once a character hits Rank 9."

Page 24 also notes that the Bottoms-Up Approach and Top-Down Approach is specifically for "creating a Throne Agent from scratch"

and Face Eater: It specifically states they don't have to follow the *branches*, but you do have to follow the *career*. Elite career advances are outside of their branches, as they sublimate into the ranks. So yes, they could take elite career advances if their GM allows it and they meet the pre-req's, but they cant just willy-nilly from every career and advance.

That brings me back to the original question regarding Peer (Adeptus Arbites) for 700 experience at rank 9 Judge.

1) Is it a misprint? (seems unlikely after considering how many times similar skill/talent cost discrepancies appear in the career tables)

2) Does it need to be purchased a second time to affect Influence rolls? (the wording of Peer and Good Reputation in Ascension leaves me to think this is not the case)

3) Does it mean that a Judge cannot go back to his previous Arbitrator career if he skipped a talent/skill? (same applies to other careers that have the same issue)

4) Is it to cover gaps created by alternate careers paths as suggested by ItsUncertainWho (this seems the strongest argument to me)

5) None of the above

It's all very muddy to me and it appears to occur frequently across all careers. Is my whole group simply missing an entry in the book?

I'm leaning toward #4 personally since the others don't seem to make as much sense.

I think the most plausible explanation, as ItsUncertainWho and Brother Praetus pointed out, is that it was written the way it is to make sure that a Judge, no matter from what career he hails or which alternate ranks he took, has access to the Peer (Adeptus Arbites) influence talent b/c in my opinion it is quite important, especially for such a high Arbites rank as the Judge, to have a good standing with your peers.

Justicar:

1) Not a misprint. We've seen the explanation that some advances are duplicated to accommodate variable advance schematics. If you're referring to the cost, it is also not unusual to see some advances increase in cost when taken at higher ranks.

Think about it. If he's gone through a 9 rank career without gaining a single peer, then I could imagine the increased cost conveying something to that effect.

2) No, it does not need to be purchased again, unless the description for the talent in Ascension specifically said it's different than the previous talent.

3) Every source previous has said that you still have access to all advances from all previously taken ranks. Unless the rulebook says it's closed off, it is safe to assume the rule hasn't changed.

4) Yep, different career paths or alternate advances. I think I've heard some people allowing a sororitas become a judge, for example.

One thing to keep in mind as well, is that when it describes the top-down approach, it also says that you have to purchase advances from the highest available rank if it is offered at more than one rank. I think the intent here is that you never had to suffer through seven tanks of not having a particular talent, so you are forced to buy it at the highest rank, which often means the highest cost.

Another way that I looked at it was that the rank 9 version ment peer to other judges, not just run of the mill non-ascended arbites.

The talent is not a misprint. They just put it there for completeness purposes, and to cover up any holes that might have existed based on non-standard choices.

The increased price is also not a misprint. Everything is more expensive in Ascension.

The exciting news is that your character can indeed purchase things from lower Ranks if s/he previously passed them up. If you never bothered to buy Peer (Adeptus Arbites) before Ascension, and your newly-anointed Arbitrator now wants to buy it, you can take it from your lower Rank for cheap.

I agree that the Top-Down approach is designed solely for new Ascension characters, and would even go so far as to say that it exists primarily to facilitate what would otherwise be an overwhelmingly daunting task. Buying up all the way though Ranks 1-9 just to play in a new Ascension game may need expediting, depending on your player, and the Top-Down option mainly exists for that reason.

As a GM, I'm generally inclined to let players buy "missed" Advances from different paths with some flat modifier to their cost, like 1.5 times or 2 times.

You're all missing a very simple fact: You don't have to be an Arbitrator to become a judge. That advance is there to reflect that a Guardsman becoming a Judge can then gain the Peer talent, while an Arbitrator would be able to purchase the cheaper version to reflect the greater ease with which they can gain the Peer talent.

BangBangTequila said:

How would you then explain an outsider from such a staunch and heavily regulated organization becoming one of its most senior (outside of the Lord Marshal I reckon, but the distinction between Lord marshal and Judge is a bit fuzzy for me) members without ever having previously even been seen as "on their level" or their equal?

Graver said:

I guess the explaination would be in the game itself. Ascendened characters have got where they are for a reason, each story would be unique so kind of an impossible question to ask.

Nimon said:

"It depends on the planet" in another guise I see. Initially, I'd agree (though a non-Arbiter becoming a Judge would need one hell of a good reason why in my book) as that seems to be a good chunk of the thrust of Ascension. And the I realized that the book, if taken at face value, only supports an Arbiter becoming a Judge. In the Options for Ascension starting on pg 21, the only career that has Judge listed as an option is Arbitrator. So, apparently, without GM fiat only an Arbiter (who should already have the Peer and if not could still get it much cheaper) can become a Judge... no guardsmen.

Of course, I reckon the peer is included for the same reason starting talents and skills are errata-ed for the first rank... latter supplements and ease of gm fiating ;-)