First rule of the 40k universe. Physics was a c'tan eaten by the Deceiver and thus stopped working right around the 25th millenium. Everything only works so Gork and Mork have something to watch in an orkoid deity's version of America's funniest videos.

That's one more reasons as to why orks never lose.

Any Ork who sees the klaw knows it works, therefore it does. Any ork who remembers seeing it knows it works, therefore it keeps working.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I thought, every ork that saw it, didn't live long enough to tell the tale...

Anyway, I followed the thread, initially not being sure of my own opinion on the topic. I now somehow tend to believe, Fortinbras might be right, the Warrant gives you the ability to trade with xenos, that doesn't include the trade of xenos artifacts back to the Imperium, which in some way would be like admitting, that the Imperium lacks something that an alienrace could somehow produce. That is a very heretical thought... I think, nobody is allowed to trade xenos goods into the Imperium.

On the other hand, Rogue Traders are above the law in many aspects, and even Inquisitors are not their "superiors", but their "peers". The Inquisition has the nominal power over everybody in the Imperium, but Rogue Traders are given a degree of freedom without peer. There are goods made by xenos, that a Rogue Trader could sell to, let's say, bored Imperial Commanders and the like. The question of "what" exactly he is trading is important here. Halo Artefacts are clearly a step too far, making you fall into the abyss and probably landing in an Inquisitorial execution chamber (if not in the arms of a Vindicare assassin). But less dangerous stuff will be overlooked even by the Ordo Xenos. You could, of course, trade your findings to the Ordo Xenos, for research reasons. Know your foe. Maybe they won't pay you in Thrones, but a favor of the Inquisition is better than a thousand worlds...

Of course, you should be careful with displaying your xeno gear in public. But again, you're a Rogue Trader or one of his most trusted and as long as you're not wearing that necrotic Worm from Forsaken Bounty on your warp eye, your preferance for the exotic won't be punished.

Faux pas aside a Rogue Trader can actually bring an Ork to a noble's dinner party. I mean sure there's gonna be alot of nasty whispering in the corners and maybe someone will issue a challenge during the evening, but the RT has the privileges to legally do this (assuming of course the Ork is sanctioned). Since he can actually trade with, deal with and act friendly with xenos of most if not any kind, doing so with two ghostswords dangling from his duel-belt shouldn't be that provocative in comparisson

Fortinbras said:

As far as I remember digi-weapons are made by the Jokaero an alien race with a genetically imprinted understanding of technology but no way to communicate with other races (which makes a lot of people question their sentience). And seemingly they are legal in the Imperium, even the Space Marine codex uses them.

Personally I would treat it this way:

You can freely sell xenos materials and body parts, as long as they aren't dangerous (in an infecting or corrupting kind of way, a symbiont claw is still sharp, but not much more than a high-quality knife) and you are a bit careful with their distribution (selling a bunch of Eldar gems to a Xenos cult could be unfortunate).

You can sell Xenos technology that is sanctioned (like digi-weapons) or that is similarly effective to human technology (like Eldar power swords, shuriken weapons, force field generators) to the higher-ups in the Imperium, meaning nobility (even though those can get you in trouble if they do more than hanging them on a wall), Inquisitors, Marines etc. But no C'tan phase swords, Necron flayer rifles, Tau stealth suits etc. you should keep those for yourself or gift them to an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor or a Watch Commander in case you need a favour one day.

Halo devices, anything warp-tainted, "Grow your own WAAAAAGGGHHH"-sets, "Why the Greater Good is Great and Good" bibles straight to the Ordo Xenos for safe-keeping. Get a receipt. If you're caught selling or even possessing something like that you better keep away from all Imperial ports.

Mjoellnir said:

The Jokaero are only mentioned in 1st Ed. I would assume that since no further mention ever occurred they're as dead a concept as Squats and Zoats. And I love Zoats.

Fortinbras said:

They have been mentioned elsewhere (mostly in descriptions of Digi-weapons) that the Jokaero are still around, and only the Jokaero can make digi-weapons. Plus, GW have formally stated that the Squats and Zoats are dead, which is why they're dead in the setting. They haven't said that about the Jokaero, which means they aren't.

Fortinbras said:

I don't know Zoats, but Jokaero are so incredibly dead that they are mentioned in the Digi-Weapon entry on page 127 of the Rogue Trader RPG Core Rulebook as making the most compact digi-weapons which are sought after in the whole Imperium.

Mjoellnir said:

You could have just said, "NO YOU'RE WRONG!!!" This is the internet...

HappyDaze said:

An even better idea would be to post a constructive argument either for or against my position. Thank you for the page reference, anyways. I confess I don't read the minutiae of some weapons, though I'd still like an explanation as to why Jokaero weapons are in circulation among the Imperium, now that we've established whether they are. It's an inconsistency either way, since the material is usually very strict about stressing that possession of non-human items is mostly verboten except to Rogue Traders. Is it simply, as some posters have pointed out, too hard to control their trafficking? Or do they just not care? That seems to me to be the most important distinction. There's a difference between "too hard to" (like drug trafficking in real life) and "don't care" (which would imply that they are sanctioned).

Similarly, if in fact, the word is "Don't Care", then why do xeno-archeologists have Ordo Xenos death warrants out on their heads for excavating trifles like Egarian crystalline trinkets, like is mentioned in Edge of the Abyss's mini-adventure?

Fortinbras said:

I would say it's "too good". The Imperial Guard is not allowed to use Land Raiders because during the Heresy the Emperor commanded that all Land Raiders should be transferred to and exclusively used by the Adeptus Astartes. Still Inquisitors can take one for them and their retinue.

Now look at it this way: During the Great Crusade looting xenos was something everybody did. Fulgrim got a nice demon weapon that possessed him that way. If they met the Jokaero during that time chances are that many digi-weapons were distributed throughout the Empire. The Inquisition was founded after the permanent enthronement of the Emperor. The Jokaero were already known, their technology was very useful and it was already known that it's not dangerous (unless you're on the wrong side of the barrel). It was used not only by Rogue Traders but also by Space Marines, Nobles, Inquisitors themselves etc. Trying to get rid of something you and your allies want to use just isn't that smart.

Fortinbras said:

I guess I have to read it again, I was mainly interested in the Crow Spirit the first time, but if I remember correctly they unearth a Halo device there, and it is said that the Egerian's died out, maybe through Yu'vath influence. That falls under the dangerous/infectious stuff.

They unearthed a single device, which Overseer Leerus hid from the Kasabillica, but you can't argue that these death warrants were issued because of an artifact that hadn't even left the planet and nobody knew about. Why the Egarian dominion is dead though is a matter of dispute, aside from the fact that Rak'Gol love Yu'Vath artifacts and in the adventure it's strictly inferred that they're coming for the device.

Anyways, my point is that things in the Imperium at large things are rarely "shades of grey", you're either innocent or guilty of heresy or treason, and even if you're innocent you're probably still guilty. The grim darkness of the 41st Millennium has rarely struck me as a place where punitive measures are meted out on a gradient based on the extremity of the offense. Basically if you have to ask, it's probably heresy, and I don't see why they'd choose to start deeming "lesser" offenses on a subject as controversial as xeno artifacts.

Fortinbras said:

If you are looking to try and make the grimdark of the 40k universe make sense you are going to pile up insanity and corruption points really fast.

As to it being too hard or don't care.. it is both. They care but as is spelled out in disciple of the dark gods it is really hard to stop the cold trade. Due to some items being legal (and thus not caring) you have alot of noise to filter through to find the banned stuff. For the banned stuff have fun searching for those 5 crates of xenos artifacts stashed somewhere on a kilometers long space ship. Add in that the buyers are almost always rich and powerful and you have a tough time stopping it.

Fortinbras said:

I do not have the adventure so I can only speculate as to why they were given death sentences. Some possibilities are.

1. They did not have permission to be doing what they were doing, this one will nail you every time in the imperium of man. Unless you are a peer of the imperium (and sometimes even if you are) it could very easily cost you your life to due things without permission or the right backing.

2. Someone with enough clout decided that he did not want them digging up this stuff. The sky is the limit here as to why this was decided, it could be they thought there was a genuine danger there all the way to they wanted to monopolize the resource for themselves. You have to remember that the imperium is not a republic it is a feudal system. The guys in charge can pretty much decide what the law is at any given moment. The pyramid structure of feudal law has many ramifications and is one of the main reason why the big wigs of the imperium seem to be above the law, in a sense they are as only those above you can make laws that apply to you.

llsoth said:

"A (Chaos) wizard did it" won't satisfy a curious player who wonders why I just dropped 5 pissed off Deathwatch Marines in his path, unfortunately.

I think at this point we're arguing over perception. In Shadowrun I always said that Renraku was one of those corporations you could never screw with and get away with it without some sort of price. Similarly: In my worldview, the Inquisition is one of those unstoppable forces of the universe. If you make their shitlist, you will be found out and they will eliminate you, no matter how long it takes.

Fortinbras said:

You misunderstand me. I don't say that their death warrants were issued because of that specific artifact but possibly because the Ordo Xenos feared that they would find something like that if they dig there. Or as Ilsoth put it. They don't have the permission.

Fortinbras said:

You forget something: The Imperium is pure hypocrisy. They worship an Emperor who wanted to rid of humanity of all superstitions and punished a son who started to build him cathedrals. They buried the book he wrote and made the book said son wrote (who's now a demon prince) his bible. They deny the Imperial Guard one of the best tanks they have because the Emperor temporarily commanded during a shortage that they should be transferred to the Marines, but ignore his permanent command that Space Marines shouldn't have psykers. They will pay you a bunch of thrones for a Jokaero digital weapon but will burn you alive for possessing a Tau dictionary. Fits right in, doesn't it?

Mjoellnir said:

Black Library novels really doesn't factor into my perceptions of the Imperium, for good reason.

Fortinbras said:

They were (mostly) written by the same people who wrote the codexes and now write the funny fluff parts in our RPG rulebooks. So why leave them out?

In my opinion, everything depends. Of course. If the Ordo Xenos Inquisitor that caught you red handed selling some xenos stuff you found is very orthodox, he'll probably burn you alive at the spot. But maybe he's one of the more radicalistically minded ones and offers you free passage, if you hand over the items. Or he'll ask you to bring him every single xenotech stuff you'll find from now on. Or he'll just decide to look the other direction. I'd say, leave it to your GM. And if you're the GM, throw a coin, heads - they get away with it; tails - they're screwed...

gomme said:

Not most of them. But more importantly:

Because they contradict each other and the codexes often. Because some of the authors are not good writers and it's hypocritical to favor one over the other, because some of the books are written with a much more light-hearted flair (see Ciaphas Cain).

The head of Black Library has even said that the goal isn't to comply with continuity, but to write a good story. He further stated that the goal is to make sure books don't contradict official material (i.e. Codexes), but are free to disregard each other in terms of events or history that occur in each of the books. He went even further to say that each author represents an "alternate" interpretation of the same material.

So in essence, an interpretation that heavily favors Dan Abnett is just as valid, in the opinion of the guy in charge of the Black Library, as someone who heavily favors C.S. Goto. Why wouldn't I ignore them? A source that is entirely dependent upon the opinion of the person interpreting it is worthless.

Don't get me wrong. I love a good story, and I mostly think Black Library novels are well-written. But I wouldn't cite them in an argument.

gomme said:

Didn't the Ork codex have one story where they defeated Yarrik but, because he was one of the harder opponents for them to defeat, they decided to let him live so that he could make the next war at Armageddon more interesting ?

Fortinbras said:

Fortinbras said:

Also remember that, unless the RT can 'prove' that the Inquisitor overstepped his bounds, retaliation is going to just get the RT in more trouble because he is now acting against the Inquisition.

Fortinbras said:

This is all true and I also read enough novels to know that they often contradict each other. Or have a lot of stuff in them, that just doesn't seem "right" (ever read "The Eye of Terror"?). Maybe we should take the Head Librarian's point of view: Make a good story. Take those parts of the fluff you like and that fit to your group's play style and needs and fill in the gaps with what most likely the players would enjoy. I know, we don't want to tell the other players some "bull" that's not corresponding to the backgroud of 40k, but if it's not mentioned specifically anywhere, then we simply have to make something up. That's why you can cite the novels in an argument, to show what somebody else has to say about this topic. Take it as "making an arument on behalf of the novel's author", if you want

And the OP's question can only be answered very arbitrary...

Fortinbras said:

You're right, there are rarely shades of grey - just shades of black. As you say, you're almost always guilty - even when you're not. But this has an odd result in the Imperium - because everyone is guilty, no one gets punished... except when they are.

Heresy, for the most part, is open to interpretation in the Imperium and usually comes down to whatever the nearest Inquisitor, Govenor, high priest or other random authority figure says it is. There is little to no consistency. But as a result you can almost always find somewhere to practice your heresy without anyone bothering you. Possession of Egrarian artifacts enough to get you a death warrant in the Calixis sector or nearby territories? No problem, just go sell them two sectors over. Plenty of nobles collect xeno artifacts and certain xeno technology (like digi-weapons) won't draw any attention... unless you come across that one purist Inquisitor who insists on setting fire to all 'xeno-heretics' he comes across.

Worth mentioning, again, that powerful, connected, and or famous folks seem to have a bit more leeway with carrieing items that would get a average citizen disentegrated on sight.

Marine chapter masters almost always seem to have some ancient relic ripped from the hands of some chaos thing long ago, and turned into a weapon for good. Guardsmen take trophies from their foes, navigators might have some xenos trinkets or even weapons on them, and there are of course ancestral trophies of conquest found in every noble house's great halls.

However, with the exception of the marines and navigators, most of these items are little more than baubles. Ork teeth, or a monster's claw , taken as good luck charms, bits of pottery that supposedly are all that remains of some foul thing one's ancestors obliterated thousands of years ago, Wii consoles, etc.

So it seems that there is some tolerance for possession of things that are basically symbolic of mankind's domination of the galaxy and its divine right to rule. Though it can vary depending on one's planet, commisar's attitude, and proximity of the nearest gang of redemptionists.

Fortinbras said:

So what does? Just the codex books and the raw from Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy/Death Watch, BFG?

Because basically wherever rogue traders are mentioned in any of those it is acknowledged that they can and do trade with xenos this is established cannon. I would argue that that is where the terms Rogue >>Trader<< and Warrant of >>Trade<< comes from. What you are suggesting is that RT are allowed to buy from xenos but not able to sell what they buy. A quite large array of gadgets and curios are listed as being of xenos make but ok to own. Even by the Inquisition itself, your average inquisitor would feel positivly undressed without a digi-weapon or two on him.

If you include BFG in your list of approved sources you can have a rogue trader with full fledged xenos ships in their fleet along with imperial navy ships. The RT could have Xenos upgrades to his cruiser etc.

As Mjoellnir pointed out the hypocrisy of the imperium is astonishing (a thing pointed out in many of the books BTW) and I see no reason why the buy/sell/owning of at least some types of xenos goods should be any different.